sluggish to crank

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sluggish to crank

Postby ApproachMedium » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:26 pm

So it was a little sluggish to crank the truck today. Drove it last on Thursday. I noticed when I came home thursday night that after shutting off the truck and removing my key that there is a faint glow in my shift indicator and my odometer. I wonder if my problem is actually something shorting/grounded in my BCM or the gauge cluster?
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Re: Optima , Odyssey, Deka, Battery information

Postby ApproachMedium » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:36 pm

OK checked out the truck tonight, looks like its a bad starter motor. Got to parents unplugged the truck from the battery, put it on the charger and immediately it said the battery was good and fully charged. I even tried the ye olde but good charger with just a ammeter and that even said it was basically fully charged. As soon as I reconnect the cables back from the battery to the truck i loose somewhere around a volt of juice when reading the voltage at the battery terminals.
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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby HenryJ » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:48 pm

A battery can read full voltage and have no amperage. Check the voltage when it has a load too. That said a good battery can be drawn down too far by a bad starter, just as a weak battery can overheat a good starter.
Be sure to check the grounds and cables carefully. A bolt that is too long and bottoms before it tightens the terminal is another known issue. A starter that has 140k miles is due for a rebuild. A solenoid that has seen moisture may go faster than that.
Sounds like you are on the right track.

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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby ApproachMedium » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:46 am

Ok so last night dad tried to take the starter out. He says the solenoid is rotted out and the motor looks like hell. We believe this is the original starter, with 250,000 miles on it now thats not too bad for original. Now the problem we have is we cant get it out. He got the two bolts out but says it wont move. It looks like the torson bar and exhaust may be in the way I think he said. Is there a trick to get these out? I cant imagine that its rocket science to remove a starter from an S10 but then again this IS GM.
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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby F9K9 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:32 am

Looks pretty straight forward.

GM Data wrote:Starter Motor Replacement 4.3L
Removal Procedure

Caution

Before servicing any electrical component, the ignition key must be in the OFF or LOCK position and all electrical loads must be OFF, unless instructed otherwise in these procedures. If a tool or equipment could easily come in contact with a live exposed electrical terminal, also disconnect the negative battery cable. Failure to follow these precautions may cause personal injury and/or damage to the vehicle or its components.

Disconnect the battery negative cable. Refer to Battery Negative Cable Disconnect/Connect Procedure .

Raise and suitably support the vehicle. Refer to Lifting and Jacking the Vehicle in General Information.

Remove the differential carrier shield mounting bolts, if equipped.
Remove the differential carrier shield, if equipped.

Remove the starter mounting bolts.

Disconnect the wires from the solenoid.

Remove the starter from the vehicle.
Note the location of the shims, if equipped.

Installation Procedure

Notice

Use the correct fastener in the correct location. Replacement fasteners must be the correct part number for that application. Fasteners requiring replacement or fasteners requiring the use of thread locking compound or sealant are identified in the service procedure. Do not use paints, lubricants, or corrosion inhibitors on fasteners or fastener joint surfaces unless specified. These coatings affect fastener torque and joint clamping force and may damage the fastener. Use the correct tightening sequence and specifications when installing fasteners in order to avoid damage to parts and systems.

Connect the wires to the solenoid.
Tighten
Tighten the battery positive cable nut to 9 N·m (80 lb in).
Tighten the engine wiring harness to starter nut to 1.9 N·m (17 lb in).

Install the starter and the inboard starter mounting bolt. Do not tighten.
Install the starter shims, if equipped.

Install the outboard starter mounting bolt. Tighten

Tighten the starter mounting bolts to 50 N·m (37 lb ft).

Install the differential carrier shield, if equipped.
Install the differential carrier shield mounting bolts, if equipped.
Tighten

Tighten the differential carrier bolts to 25 N·m (18 lb ft).
Lower the vehicle.
Connect the battery negative cable. Refer to Battery Negative Cable Disconnect/Connect Procedure .
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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby ApproachMedium » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:34 am

It does, but its not? Specifically the following part, I have no idea what they are talking about.

"Remove the differential carrier shield mounting bolts, if equipped.
Remove the differential carrier shield, if equipped."

I have removed all other bolts etc from the starter and it has no room to get out. The transmission, torson bar and parts of the exhaust are in the way. I watched some videos on YouTube showing some kind of cover on the transmission over the flywheel, but my truck does not have this. These videos etc all show the starter on the driver side which I believe is the 4 cyl engine, mine is on the passenger side.
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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby HenryJ » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:37 am

Our trucks did not come stock with a differential shield, or any other protective shields. Ignore that part for a crew cab, unless you installed them.
Get all the cables loose and play with it. It is a Chinese puzzle, but it will come out. You have to orient it just right to slide down along the a-arm mount. Make sure your motor mounts are not broken and letting the engine sit lower than it should. Some light upward pressure on the pan rail may help?

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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby ApproachMedium » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:45 pm

OK thanks for the info. I figured it didnt have the shield, and I didnt put one on. Ill try to mess with it tomorrow on my day off in daylight.

And yes, my driver side motor mount is broken, so maybe i should try having the truck on jackstands and use the jack itself to lift the motor to the right angle?
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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby HenryJ » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:20 pm

You may need to at least level the engine up. If it is down, you may not have the clearance that you need. It is a tight fit IIRC.

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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby ApproachMedium » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:57 pm

Got it. Ill give that a try tomorrow. While I am at it I should just replace the motor mounts for the 3rd time lol.
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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby HenryJ » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:13 pm

Probably ;)
Did ES ever come up with a polyurethane mount?

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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby ApproachMedium » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:03 pm

Looks like they list them listed in their catalog for the "Blazer/Jimmy 4x4 (S Series Compact)". They do not mention the pick up model specifically. I cant imagine the mounting of the motor in the 4x4 Blazer/Jimmy with a 4.3L was much different is it? I should see if my local Napa guy can get these for me.
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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby ApproachMedium » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:48 pm

Got my self in to this first hand this afternoon, and with the help of a friend I got the starter out with out modification to anything.

Basically what I did was jacked the truck up on stands, took off the passenger side wheel and disconnected the electrical connections. Then I went underneath, and removed the two bolts from the starter. The one is a little tricky with the two tranny cooler lines in the way. Once I got them out the starter pops right off, but had to maneuver it through all the junk in the way to get it out. It basically has to get turned upside down, while the jack was placed under the engine at the oil pan and raised the motor a bit. Considering I have a broken driver side motor mount and a bent frame at the front end, this may be different/easier for others.

I appreciate everyones help and input on this, as usual thank you very much!
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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby HenryJ » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:51 pm

"I love it when a plan comes together." Good job! 8)

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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby ApproachMedium » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:54 pm

Haha! Thanks! I just kept laughing here, I can take two 65lbs starters out of a CAT 16 cyl twin turbo diesel engine in a locomotive with zero experience but my father who's worked on hundreds of cars couldn't get a starter out of an S10!
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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby HenryJ » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:57 pm

:lmao:

Sometimes the bigger they are the easier they are to work on. It is the little one that kicks our butt! :)

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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby ApproachMedium » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:21 pm

If you only knew the whacky tools, extensions, and fancy pieces I had to dig through an entire railyard to find just to get the bolts out of these things you wouldn't be saying that LOL. One of the things you need is a 3/8 star socket that also has a built in swivel. I think it took us a few days to actually find everything we needed. After all was said and done, the starters werent even the problem and the thing was past its 92 day inspection period, so we had to ship it off for its PM anyways. Oh well!
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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby ApproachMedium » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:53 pm

So this problem came back, figured the battery or the rotted negative cable was my problem and did the easier way out first. Changed the cable and during the changing of the cable had the batt on the charger. It got to 100% just as I completed the task, hooked it up and tried to start. Fought with it, but I got it to start! It seems as though this optima really is shot now. I wonder if the starter took it out? Maybe I have another issue with the truck? I havent figured out how to accurately check a cars electrical systems for grounds so I dont know If I have some kind of ground/short someplace else. Gonna swap the GTI optima and the CC one today if I have time when the proper tools arrive and see what happens.
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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby HenryJ » Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:35 pm

It is possible that the Optima may be the problem:
Optima leaves me stranded
Optima battery problems
Optima batteries bogus
Problems with Optima battery
Optima battery flat dead
Optima batteries
Optima battery issues
Optima batteries

I am well past three strikes with them. More on that here: Optima , Odyssey, Deka, Battery information I'm done with Optima, although I still have three all older than ten years working fine. The second thread up there is a good read and offers my perspective in a couple posts.
My current front runner is the Diehard Platinum.

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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby ApproachMedium » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:53 pm

Yep. im pretty sure the Optima is the issue. I should have listened and gotten the Die Hard. I just think its funny how the GTI optima has been killed dead twice by my mistake of leaving my amp switched on and havent had any problems with recharging it and rolling right a long. Oh well! Live and learn!!!
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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby HenryJ » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:00 pm

If it is like the others I have had, you can use a good charger to fully charge it. It may test good, but lacks the proper voltage (12.9v-13.2v). It will then work Ok for a while and gradually start getting weaker. This to the point where it will no longer start the vehicle.
Is yours swelled on the middle cell, opposite the side with the posts? Many of them that I have had fail were that way.

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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby ApproachMedium » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:04 pm

Humm no swelling but after having it on the charger today for the hour or so it only had 12.10 volts with the multimeter. Sounds like a dead one to me. The GTI tests at 13.50 with the engine off.
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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby HenryJ » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:13 pm

Sounds like one cell completely gone for sure.
It will still work as a battery to run accessories, a fridge or do testing as most of those require 11 volts or more to operate properly. I kept one of my old defects around to do that with in the shop for a while. Now I just use a jump starter battery pack.

I just checked the RedTop that I pulled from the Vega. It is a 2006 battery and exhibits the same problems I have been seeing. I charged it fully last weekend and today it sits at 12.34 volts. I'll probably keep it around for testing, but never in an application where I must count on it. I still have my three good OLD batteries. RedTop in the HenryJ, the BlueTop went into the Vega and the Maxx has a RedTop. Not looking forward to replacing them :(

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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby ApproachMedium » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:04 pm

So I had a real breakthru with this for once. Yes, it was the battery. But here is why! Behold the photos below, which shows the corner busted open and is leaking acid out. I knew the corner was broken when I got it new but the body of the battery was not exposed or showed any damage that could have affected its performance. I guess over time though from the vibrations it destroyed it. Dropped the battery from the GTI in and she fired right up multiple times with no issues. Didnt even try to stall like it was doing before.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby HenryJ » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:18 pm

Pretty easy to see the problem there. Wish they were all that visible. No way to blame that on a defect.

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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby ApproachMedium » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:33 pm

Yep. Now to just convince the place I bought it from that the battery was like that when it arrived at my house back in march.
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Re: sluggish to crank

Postby HenryJ » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:44 pm

Yeah, might be a tough sell. The warranty is pretty clear that case damage is not covered. If you have a good relationship with the distributor they may help you out?
Honesty is the best policy. Let them know that the broken corner did not bother you at the time and you did not know that it was leaking until now.

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