Bigger alternator

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Bigger alternator

Postby HenryJ » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:46 pm

This is a long thread, but read it through. The AD244 alternator seems to be the one I would choose now-HJ

I have been thinking about upgrading the alternator, and have started gathering information.
My local shop says that they can fix up a CS-144 for me that will work great.

Here is a website that I found - 4.3 V-6...105 amp CS-130D upgrade to CS-144 , another page that shows the alternators Direct Bolt up and plug in Oversize High Output Alternators

Quick Start Automotive Electric™ looks like they have some good stuff, but the prices are pretty "shocking" too ;)

My local rebuilder seems to think that a dollar per amp for the bigger alternator would be "do-able". I just might make the investment.
Last edited by HenryJ on Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby killian96ss » Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:13 pm

I have always had good luck with Powermaster alternators, but they are a bit pricey. If you can get one made for $1 per amp then I would go that route, because even though the Powermaster alternators are good it would cost at least $300-$360 for one of theirs. :shock: What are you thinking of upgrading to? 140 amp maybe? I doubt you would need more than that.

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Postby HenryJ » Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:30 pm

killian96ss wrote:...What are you thinking of upgrading to? 140 amp maybe? I doubt you would need more than that.

I do think that the 140 amp is the way to go. Reports have it delivering as much as 90-110 amps at idle speeds. That would work great with the winch :D

Here is the comparison. The bigger alternator's stator is nearly twice the size of our tiny alternators. It is remarkable that our tiny alternator handles the amount of load that is expected of it in our stock trucks -
Image
The bigger alternator will not only provide more power , but run cooler and last longer under demanding conditions.
I am preparing for a long hot summer, electric engine cooling fans running, AC on and winching :D

I talked with my local builder about a group purchase too. He is going to see just how good a price that he can do.
There will be a significant price drop for buying ten.

I will be the "guinea pig" on this one :? I am going to install one on mine, take the pictures and test it. If it looks and works well I'll recommend it, and see just how good a deal I can get for everyone else.

Would there be enough interest for a group purchase?

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Postby HenryJ » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:47 am

Guess not? :lol:

The first step is going to be upgrading the wiring. I will add a few grounds and upsize the wire from the alternator.
The plan is to work on the wiring this weekend , we'll see how it goes.

EDIT: I checked things out and I am satisfied with the stock wiring. The wire from the alternator appears to be 6 or 8 gauge. This should handle up to 200 amps pretty easily.
The battery cables are only the next size larger, so if I were to upsize the alternator wire , then upsizing the battery cables would be next.

Having looked things over I think that it will be OK. There are good grounds to the engine and frame. Their size looks OK too.

This may be just an easy bolt on :thumb:

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Postby killian96ss » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:28 pm

The 140 amp alt. you have pictured above is the same one that I have on my SS from the factory. The only thing that might be different from my SS alt. would be the mounting holes or clocking position. Are you going to use your factory alt. pulley or is the one on the larger one the same? How about belt length? The spacing from the acc. bolt to the center of the pulley looks different in the photo. :? The alt. wire on my SS is 6 guage, but I have seen guys running 4 and even 2 with the 140 amp. alt. Ideally I would like to run 1/0 guage battery cables and 4 guage alt. wire on both my vehicles. :)

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Postby HenryJ » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:44 pm

killian96ss wrote:... Are you going to use your factory alt. pulley or is the one on the larger one the same? How about belt length? ... I would like to run 1/0 guage battery cables and 4 guage alt. wire...
I'll know lots more after I get some "hands on". Rumor has it that the stock belt will work fine. The only thing is that the rear stabilizing bracket can no longer be used. There may need to be an adapter for the exciter wire plug, a change of plugs or make it self exciting.
Like I said , we'll see.

I too would prefer bigger cables, but I think quantity is making up for size in this case. Older models used two big cables. Mine currently has nine. ranging from 10ga to 2/0. (starter+, acc/pwr+, winch+, radio+, amp+, engine-, frame-, winch-, radio-)

I am satisfied that this is sufficient.

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Postby Rusty » Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:21 am

"Self exciting"? I'm leaving that one alone! :lol:

Kidding aside, do you think this would be needed for someone who doesn't have a winch but does like to fill up the accessory plugs with stuff like CB, my soon to arrive GPS and a small power inverter (175w) to run a laptop and who knows what else I can think of?
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Postby HenryJ » Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:13 am

Rusty wrote:...do you think this would be needed for someone who doesn't have a winch but does like to fill up the accessory plugs with stuff like CB, my soon to arrive GPS and a small power inverter (175w) to run a laptop...
Probably not. This will only be needed for those who run high drain accessories like offroad lights, audio amplifiers, a winch or jump start vehicles frequently.
Of course if you add lots of items to the system you are asking for trouble. I have added the electric cooling fans, offroad lights, the quadbeam mod, Bazooka amp, ham radio, laptop, GPS, FRS radio, CB radio. All of this at the same time is pushing the limits of an already taxed system. While it may handle it for a while, I'm going to prevent future problems with the upgrade.

EDIT:
killian96ss wrote:The 140 amp alt. you have pictured above is the same one that I have on my SS from the factory.
Are you sure? This one is nearly twice the size of our alternator and there is a smaller CS130 that looks similar. It is rated from 105 to 130 amps.
The CS140 is "frigg'n hooge". The pictures don't do the size difference justice. you really need to see them side by side in person to appreciate the difference.
I was told that these were primarily used on buses and large trucks. I guess they were optional on Hummers and some of the Caddys too.
You might have it, I'm by no means an expert here. I am going on what little information that I have right now :D It just seems to me that a performance oriented car would be a little more "diet conscious" and opt for a lighter model. Heck, we put a 35 amp Nippon Denso alt. on the rail. Those thinks don't weigh much more than a can of pop :lol: they are cute little devils. Just the ticket for a dragster :thumb:

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Postby killian96ss » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:33 am

killian96ss wrote:The 140 amp alt. you have pictured above is the same one that I have on my SS from the factory.
HenryJ wrote:Are you sure? This one is nearly twice the size of our alternator and there is a smaller CS130 that looks similar. It is rated from 105 to 130 amps.
The CS140 is "frigg'n hooge". The pictures don't do the size difference justice. you really need to see them side by side in person to appreciate the difference.
I was told that these were primarily used on buses and large trucks. I guess they were optional on Hummers and some of the Caddys too.
You might have it, I'm by no means an expert here. I am going on what little information that I have right now :D It just seems to me that a performance oriented car would be a little more "diet conscious" and opt for a lighter model. Heck, we put a 35 amp Nippon Denso alt. on the rail. Those thinks don't weigh much more than a can of pop :lol: they are cute little devils. Just the ticket for a dragster :thumb:
Yes, it's definitely the same alternator. These are factory on the Impala SS, Caprice 9C1 cop cars, Caprice Classic, Buick Roadmaster, and certain Caddys. All are the 140 amp version. Some guys in our club have upgraded to the 200 amp in the same case, mainly because of huge stereo systems. BTW, my performance car is not too "diet concious" at 4100 lbs. :lol: Hell, I think my SS and the CC are within 50 lbs of each other. :lol: Would you believe my SS gets much better gas mileage than the CC, even with the V-8! My CC gets 16 mpg average and my SS gets 22 mpg average! :shock: Maybe I just need to put an LT1 in the CC. :lol:

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Postby kf6kmx » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:04 pm

killian96ss wrote:Yes, it's definitely the same alternator. These are factory on the Impala SS, Caprice 9C1 cop cars, Caprice Classic, Buick Roadmaster, and certain Caddys. All are the 140 amp version. Some guys in our club have upgraded to the 200 amp in the same case, mainly because of huge stereo systems. BTW, my performance car is not too "diet concious" at 4100 lbs. :lol: Hell, I think my SS and the CC are within 50 lbs of each other. :lol: Would you believe my SS gets much better gas mileage than the CC, even with the V-8! My CC gets 16 mpg average and my SS gets 22 mpg average! :shock: Maybe I just need to put an LT1 in the CC. :lol:

Steve


Thats the same one that was on my 1-ton GMC with a 454 in it..
I have the same thing on fuel economy.. My other car, an '89 Lincoln LSC with the 5.0HO (basically Mustang GT power train) gets about 22 to 23 on the highway (up to 28 if I leave the auto climate control turned off).. the truck gets about 16 to 18 avg. city/hwy. It has the 5.0 high output, 4speed heavy duty auto trany, and a limited slip rear end (you get funny looks from people when a 'luxury car' can smoke both back tires 8)
I even left it stock.. even the stock muffler, so there isnt much exhaust note to it, until you 'get on it'. only thing not factory is the radio, I put in an XM tuner in place of the factory am/fm/cassette.
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Postby HenryJ » Mon May 09, 2005 4:56 pm

Got the new alternator today :D
I am still working some bugs out though. It bolts in nicely, and with minor modifications to change the plug , connects easily.

However we still need to get the correct regulator figured out and I had to get a little longer belt.

I'll get it all worked out and see what we can do for a group purchase.

Bench test had it putting out just over 165 amps , cold at 3000 rpm. I'll do further testing to determine the range, when we get things working.

Update: The "bug" was some incorrect wiring diagrams :roll: I reversed the wiring and everything is functioning correctly.
Now I can progress to the testing , and gathering specifics for a good write up.

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Postby HenryJ » Wed May 11, 2005 3:40 pm

Did some preliminary testing today and I am trying an addition to the regulator. I added a 10 ga wire to the regulators "sense" connection. I want to see if a positive connection there will offer any benefits.

I was only able to load it with 90 amps. This was the quad lights, FM radio, Bazooka amp , 55w Aux. driving lights, AC max. , electric cooling fans on high. I didn't think to turn on the fog lights for another 110 watts, and didn't feel like putting the winch on to add a load, since I didn't have a helper to run it.
The bigger alternator handled all that just fine at an idle. Raising the idle to 2000 rpm did not affect the amperes draw, so I was unable to draw more than the alternator would supply. This was not cold, and at a operating temperature of 180*.

I will have to take it to the alternator shop to test it under a variable load (carbon pile), and get a real idea of what this will put out.

The regulators design has it maintaining 13.8 volts. I have seen a maximum of 14.6 volts cold, as it warms to operating temperature the level stays at the 13.8 volts.
At first I was a little concerned about this since the stock alternator seems to stay a little more consistently at 14.1 to 14.3 volts. I was assured that this was the design of this regulator, and perfectly normal.

Testing and performance continues...

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Postby HenryJ » Sun May 15, 2005 11:17 am

Picture of the installed 144CS alternator-

Image
Last edited by HenryJ on Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby F9K9 » Sun May 15, 2005 11:39 am

okay everyone...........repeat after me.......................

ooooooooooooooooooooo..................ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :wink:

I've been following you on this one, Brule :D

Even have been eyeballing the 140 or 160 amp ones on Ebay since the alternator is one of the few things I replaced on my '97 :)

Not many have a wench on the forum and hopefully not to many have the lights and compressors that would look at alternators.

Now, if you mentioned height or 1/8 and 1/4 mile time improvements with the super dupper bearings that the alternator comes with........then more of a following.

This is a reasonable mod, HJ :)
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Postby HenryJ » Sun May 15, 2005 11:56 am

f9k9 wrote:...have been eyeballing the 140 or 160 amp ones on Ebay ...Not many have a winch on the forum and hopefully not to many have the lights and compressors that would look at alternators...
Ebay or even used would be a good option. Do you have an idea of what they have been selling for?
The pigtail that is needed to adapt it to the bigger alternator is readily available. So, making it fit is not problem at all.

It is funny that people would think that the only reason to add the bigger alternator is if you add a high drain accessory like a winch.
In fact the stock system already taxes the stock 100 amp alternator to the point of meltdown. All it takes is a mod like the quadbeam mod, and a weak battery to seal it's demise.
The local alternator guru has a stack of melted 130's. The small bearings just can't handle the heat that is generated when they are worked for long periods of time.
The 144 is considered to be "bullet proof". It is just plain heavy throughout.
I see it as a valuable addition, and should never have to worry about my alternator :mrgreen:

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Postby F9K9 » Sun May 15, 2005 12:19 pm

Just like the marine vinyl readily available (somewhat) and the spring shop, there is no local alternator guru here. They have followed the shoe repair craftsman into the sunset. :(

Don't take what you have for granted :lol:
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Postby killian96ss » Wed May 18, 2005 8:14 am

HenryJ wrote:The 144 is considered to be "bullet proof". It is just plain heavy throughout.
I see it as a valuable addition, and should never have to worry about my alternator :mrgreen:
These are good alternators, but not "bullet proof" :lol: I am in the process of replacing my third 144 on my SS with only 52k on the odometer. My factory alt. had bearing problems @ 37k miles and was replaced with a new AC Delco piece. Now @ 52k miles my Delco is starting to develope the same bearing problem (whining noise), and a slight amp drop. I am going to replace it with a new Bosch alt. from Pep Boys this weekend. I originally ordered one from Kragen, but when I picked it up I decided to inspect it and it looked as though it had been dropped out of an airplane. :lol: This thing had dents, scratches and greasy fingerprints all over it! :shock: As you can amagine I did not keep this one. :lol: Next I tried Autozone and they told me they could get me one in about 45 days! :shock: Not an option for me, so Pep Boys it is. A new Bosch 140 amp 144 is $169 @ Pep Boys. Would you believe a new GM piece is around $349! :shock: I'm not sure why I have had 2 fail in such a short time frame, but I suspect high speed driving on road coarses could be the culpret, because I'm definitely not taxing the 140 amp rating. :?

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Postby F9K9 » Wed May 18, 2005 1:27 pm

HenryJ wrote:
f9k9 wrote:...have been eyeballing the 140 or 160 amp ones on Ebay ...Not many have a winch on the forum and hopefully not to many have the lights and compressors that would look at alternators...
Ebay or even used would be a good option. Do you have an idea of what they have been selling for?
:


I'm thinking around $150, as of this past weekend. :D

I just looked again and here is a 160 amp for $149.99
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Postby HenryJ » Wed May 18, 2005 3:53 pm

killian96ss wrote:
HenryJ wrote:The 144 is considered to be "bullet proof"...
These are good alternators, but not "bullet proof" :lol: I am in the process of replacing my third ... factory alt. had bearing problems @ 37k miles and was replaced with a new AC Delco piece. Now @ 52k miles my Delco is starting to develope the same bearing problem (whining noise),... I'm not sure why I have had 2 fail in such a short time frame, but I suspect high speed driving on road coarses could be the culpret...
The stock regulators are not very good, or so I was told. I haven't heard of premature bearing failures. Maybe they are using substandard bearings? Or perhaps there is excessive tension placed on them?

Sounds like you guys are finding them for between $150-$170. I have some more testing to do, then I'll see what can be done for a price on these.

There will be some added costs as well. A new pigtail is needed as well as a longer belt.

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Postby HenryJ » Sat May 21, 2005 8:27 am

OK, so I have some more information.
I did a little more digging into the rear bearing issue. It turns out that there are two different types of bearings used, needle and sealed.
The rear cases differ, and the sealed roller bearing is the better of the two. Needle bearings are prone to failure in this application.

killian96ss , Were your housings rear needle bearing cases?

It is easy to tell which case you have. The needle bearing cases have what looks like an inverted soft plug in the rear housing in the center of the case.
Like this one-
Image

The sealed roller bearing housings are cast and smooth across the back of the center, with perhaps a small hole drilled in the center.
This is not a real good picture since it is still mounted on the truck-
Image

At this point I would make sure that the one you select has the sealed bearing. That is what the one that I am testing uses , and I want to make sure that the others will be as well.

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Postby HenryJ » Fri Jun 10, 2005 3:17 pm

There are still issues to be resolved before I can recommend this mod.

Five times not the alternator has failed to start in a timely manner. It has been after sitting over night and on cool mornings.
I thought it may have been the connections, but this morning I drive a half mile or so without the alternator charging. I stop check the connections, but nothing gets it working. So, I turn around and head home. Just as I pull into the driveway it fires up. This was the worst case of the five, and not related to connections.
I took it back to the alternator shop, and of course we could not replicate the problem.
It really doesn't make sense, since heat could cause a problem, not cold :?

Well Bob finally gets time to tear into it and we relace the regulator just for kicks, try a different brush holder, stator, and rectifier.
It now puts out over 200 amps, but would probably rate at 160 or so.

The new regulator holds between 14.2 and 14.6 volts so far. This is better than the other one.

The testing continues...

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Postby HenryJ » Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:26 am

Update:
Hold off on this mod until some wiring issues are cleared up.
While testing it on our trip, I have had problems with even this alternator. Nothing serious, but concerning all the same.
The battery light has been illuminating intermittently under light load cruise speeds.
I have not yet ruled out connections, but may be leaning more toward a PCM compatibility issue.

I wouldn't advise this mod until this issue has been resolved.

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Postby HenryJ » Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:18 am

OK, time for plan "B"

I would say stay away from this CS144 alternator! The single external fan just does not keep it cool enough in tight quarters, and there seems to be an incompatibility issue with the regulator and the PCM.

Next thing we are going to try is adding a bigger stator and rectifier to the stock alternator. This will bring it up to a 140 amp rating. By using the stock regulator it will retain the compatibility with the PCM.

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Postby HenryJ » Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:04 pm

The rebuilt stock alternator is back in it did need brushes when it was apart. They were at close to 50%.
It now has a 140 amp stator and 4200HD heavy duty rectifier.It tested to 175 amps pretty easily. The bearings in this one are bigger, although the rear retainer is a plastic composite material.
The new rectifier looks to have some improved cooling designs.

Back to testing this configuration....

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Postby adrenalnjunky » Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:13 pm

HJ - didn't you do some other upgrades to the charging system (wiring and such) when you had the first one in - are you planning on going back to the all original configuration and testing, or are you leaving everything else modifed as well?

Provided this upgraded model works well, do you have a ballpark figure on what the upgrade would cost to send it in to your guy?

Also - if I were to go to a wrecking yard and pull the alt out of a wrecked GM vehicle with the same Alt - do I just need an undamaged case, or are a lot of the internals reused? Just wondering how good of a Core I would need to send in.
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Postby HenryJ » Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:09 am

adrenalnjunky wrote:HJ - didn't you do some other upgrades to the charging system (wiring and such)
Nope, I decided that the stock wiring was pretty good and left it alone
...do you have a ballpark figure on what the upgrade would cost to send it in to your guy?
I do plant to have all that information.
I have my doubts as to whether it will be cost effective to ship both ways, but I will have the part numbers, pictures and what needs to be done for sure.

We will figure out the most cost effective method of making this upgrade available.

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Postby adrenalnjunky » Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:28 pm

http://www.ohiogen.com/index.html

Those guys have a pretty good name in the car stereo world building custom high output alternators - At one point in time Alma Gates' big ole Kicker sponsored SPL competition bronco was running their alts for power.

Looks like they have a new bronco built up running a coupl eof alternators from a company called hi Output Alternators - ever seen a chain drive alternator? How bout 12?
Image
Thanks, CHRIS
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Postby F9K9 » Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:45 pm

Got an email from the seller tonight......

I had asked him if it was compatible with our Crews and if it was a true "Plug and Play" with our PCMs as well.......
Yes , This alternator is completely compatible with your 02 s-10 ............ thanks ..............


If it looks good to you HJ, I am jumping on it :D
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Postby HenryJ » Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:01 pm

I'd be tempted , if I was not already working with this one. Like I said the regulator is the only concern that I have, but this one would be worth a try.

Worst case scenario, you would have to swap your stock regulator to the new alternator. Then it would work for sure :thumb:

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Postby HenryJ » Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:07 am

This one too may not be the best choice. Going back to the stock regulator , beefing up this alternator with a higher amp stator and rectifier solved the issues we were having with intermittent battery lights, and failure to charge.

Now when hot this one is dropping voltage rather severely. It was pretty hot yesterday, but those are the conditions in which I want this to shine. AC high on , fans on, lights on , stereo on, radio on and "hotter than the hubs of heck".

We were only able to get 64 amps out of this one at an idle and the voltage dropped as low as 12.1 volts. The voltage would increase when the RPMs come up, but with concerns of low voltage, I did not test it under a load at cruise rpm.

Just to eliminate any variables I added a 2 gauge cable from the alternator to the battery, and a 4 gauge cable from the negative post to the alternator mounting bolt. This thing has all the cable it would ever need :lol: I also swapped out batteries to the newest Optima redtop in my "fleet", less a year old.

Testing continues...
Last edited by HenryJ on Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby HenryJ » Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:18 pm

UPDATE: I installed a smaller pulley today, and talked to an alternator "expert".

Ok , at this point I have a 140A stator and heavy duty rectifier installed in the stock CS130D. It does not maintain acceptable voltage idling when at operating temperature.

The smaller pulley increases the speed of the alternator , and seems to have helped a bit. It will now maintain 13.8 volts idling in park while hot, and only drops to 12.8 volts in gear. This an improvement over what I had , but still probably not much better than the stock unit would do at idle.

I was not real impressed with the "expert" I talked to on the phone this morning. He said that the 140 amp stator would develop more amperage in the higher rpms, but would sacrifice them in the lower rpms. HUH? I'm sorry I just don't get that!
His explanation went to blaming it on the larger gauge wiring used. I argued that the CS144 was able to provide 90A at idle and over 200A at cruise speeds. His counter was that it is a larger case. WTF?
What do we have to do to make this work? He didn't know.

Now I have a phone number and email address for another "expert". This guy puts on seminars dealing with electrical systems.
I'll see if he is smart enough to help me find a solution, or at least understand the limitations.

If the CS144 would cooperate with the PCM, and run cool enough, it would be a nice option. I like the dual fans , and potential for better cooling that the CS130D case incorporates.
If it is true, and I really don't believe it, that the higher amp stators sacrifice low rpm performance, then we would be better off staying with the stock alternator. Heck, if you did want a little boost you could just add the smaller pulley and gain some speed.

:mad: I'm still working on it.... Right now I would say stick with the stocker and don't waste your money!

OH! be very careful with the cast aluminum alternator bracket. The right side front mounting ear can easily be broken off!
Yep, you guessed it, after ten installation and removals I broke it. It will cost me a 12 pack of beer at the salvageyard :D and has been replaced with a good used one.
I did find two others at the salvage yard that were also broken, so this may be a weak point to watch out for.

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Postby HenryJ » Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:51 pm

Jeez, I have lost track of where we are in the alphabet of "plans" :!:

I am now back to testing the CS144 large case alternator with yet another regulator. Bob thinks that he found one that may get along with the PCM.
The CS144 delivers 94A at an idle and benched easily to 200A.

I loaded it with all my accessories, engine hot, fans on high AC maxed, quad lights on. It managed to hold 13.6 volts while putting out 94A. I did briefly see it hit 100A at idle so the boasts of these putting out 90-110A at idle are not unreasonable.

I have one "ace" left in the hole. The smaller pulley. I just got back inside from adding it.
It has cooled off some now, so it tested a little better, or adding the pulley made a difference. This time it tested 14 volts and I was only able to load it to 70A.
:fingers crossed: I hope this is the answer. If the regulator agrees with the PCM, we have a winner.

I am currently convinced that the CS130D can not develop enough amperage at an idle to be sufficient.

EDIT: I also added a section of defroster hose connected to a 2" hole I drilled in the cover/seal between the radiator and battery. This will direct cool air to the back of the alternator when in motion, and allow the alternator to draw cool air when stopped.
I have seen this for aircraft alternators, and I believe, a Mercedes alternator. Can't hurt.

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Postby HenryJ » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:33 pm

The CS144 is working great. Runs cooler now, and maintains 13.8 volts hot.

These are the parts that may or may not differ from the "off the shelf" CS144 alternators:
22-120 rear housing (sealed bearing case)
D413 regulator
52mm pulley (2mm smaller than stock) # 1219P (2.06 dia.)
160 amp stator

Next thing to do is get a price together :mg:
Last edited by HenryJ on Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby RocK » Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:39 pm

Cool Thanks HJ...

I was planning on adding more lights to my truck and my voltage gauge usually sticks around 14.1V. With the lights on there is a pretty big drop. Sometimes 1.5V (worst case). So I have been watching this thread and I am glad you finally have some good news.
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Postby HenryJ » Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:04 pm

If you have a local alternator shop, and feel comfortable stopping in to visit. Ask them what they can do for you.
With the above information they should be able to give you a price. The only thing that I did not include in the parts above is a pigtail. The CS144 uses a different plug, therefore the stock one will need to be changed. The most sanitary method is to just swap the wires from the stock plug to the new one.

I totally destroyed my terminals from changing back and forth so many times, so I ended up adding my own spade connectors for quick swaps. This can be done as well.
Of course I will figure out what is the most cost effective method. I went to the salvage yard and grabbed a few so I have a couple extras. The pigtail that I got from my alternator shop was pretty sloppy. I was not impressed with it's quality. The salvage yards may be a good option for the plugs?

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Postby RocK » Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:19 pm

Would it be possible to snap a pic of the new plug so i can get my ducks in a row?

thanks in advance fella....
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Postby HenryJ » Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:33 pm

It is the one pictured on the left here-

Image

You can buy this $14.95......D1W1206....................CS-130D to CS-144\CS-130 Wiring Harness Adapter

I think grabbing one cheap, might be a better option. I can't say for sure if that one is wired correctly for the regulator. Swapping is not that hard , and I will have a list of vehicles that have the correct plug. Right now I would say all GM trucks from at least 1986 to 1994 would be a good place to look.
Most of them only have one wire. That is fine you won't need the wire, just the plug. We need two wires and our terminals will snap right into the new plug.

Here is another one that looks quite a bit like the one I got at the alternator shop-

Image

$7.95......D1-C120.................CS-130 & CS-144 Wiring Repair Harness
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Postby RocK » Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:08 pm

holy Chachi.... that was quick.


Can you send me one that fast? LOL
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Postby gocntry » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:05 pm

Never Seen This Before

MSD Alternators

You Pick Your Alternator, Then Pick The Mounting Brackets, Then Pick Which Pulley You Want. They Come In 105, 130, 160 Amp.
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Postby HenryJ » Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:05 pm

f9k9 wrote:
HenryJ wrote:Plan on upgrading the alternator...................


That's another mod that seems to have been overshadowed with the mystery lift :D

Did you ever settle on an upgrade?

There are some good buys on ebay that do not have the bearings you prefer.
Yes the one above is working up to expectations.
Those Ebay alternators may not have the correct regulator for our trucks as well? I know it took a few trys to find a good one. You want a good rectifier as well.
Who knows you might find a good one?
I think the finding one with the good bearings is fairly important though, since that is the main complaint we have seen.
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Postby HenryJ » Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:58 pm

Do you guys have any local rebuilders?

Take them this information:
CS144 alternator with-
22-120 rear housing (sealed bearing case)
D413 regulator
52mm pulley (2mm smaller than stock)
160 amp stator

See what kind of price you can get from them. My supplier/builder may not have the best price around?
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Postby killian96ss » Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:54 pm

Powermaster also makes excellent alternators for the S10. Here are a few that Summit carries.

CS130D, 90 amps @ idle, 150 amps highway speed, part # 48231 $239.95 @ Summit
Image

CS144, 120 amps @ idle, 200 amps highway speed, part # 48203 $359.95 @ Summit.
Image

While these may seem pricey, they do make one of the best alternators on the market. I have used them in several cars without one failure. :D

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Postby F9K9 » Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:48 am

Okay, I remembered to stop in to my local shop and ask them for an estimate to build these. I wants a application number for the CS144 (he says it's a type and not a model number) :oops:

He also wants to know if we want new or remanufactured? :D
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Postby HenryJ » Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:04 pm

f9k9 wrote:Okay, I remembered to stop in to my local shop and ask them for an estimate to build these. I wants a application number for the CS144 (he says it's a type and not a model number) :oops:

He also wants to know if we want new or remanufactured? :D

:lol:
Yes, it is a type.
You want a CS144 that has the same mounts as your stock alternator. Everyone wants an application these days :roll:
Tell them 2000 a Chevrolet fullsize 4wd 6.5L or 7.4L CS144
With 22-120 rear housing (sealed bearing case) , D413 regulator , 52mm pulley (2mm smaller than stock) , 160 amp stator . Have them clock it to match your stock alternator.

Be sure to fill them in on what you are trying to do. Let them know you want to run a CS144 alternator on your 4.3L s-series.
The first question may be ... why? If the answer you get is ..."it can't be done" or "we can't guarantee that" , then you have not yet found THE shop :mg:
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Postby F9K9 » Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:05 pm

Will try again tomorrow and I copied your comments just to let his ego trip his butt up!
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Postby HenryJ » Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:25 pm

Build a good relationship.

I am in no way an expert, I have lots to learn. I may be spoiled with a local builder who can take a box of miscellaneous parts and come up with gold.

Remember this is their buisness. Don't walk in and expect to tell them how to do things. You want their help. They don't NEED yours.
Play the game. Kids are great, for each question they ask...your answered with ...Why? It begins the question, and follows all the answers flawlessly.
Learn from the kids.
The sign of intelligence is knowing to ask questions. It is the stupid person who doesn't ask them.

If the person who is answering your questions is not willing to educate and help you search for an answer, find someone else.

Even my local "guru" doesn't know it all. I did had unresolved questions and he referred me to a couple other people. One was less than helpful, and I found my own answer before resorting to contacting the other.

Moral of the story: Take some of their time. If they don't have time to help you...find someone who IS willing.
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Postby F9K9 » Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:41 pm

Point well made and taken!
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Postby F9K9 » Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:05 pm

The saga contnues :cry:

Okay went back to the shop today but, I do not think he is grasping this concept. Even with the applications he wants a model number. for the 144. He had a big book that had beau coup model numbers but really no cross reference to what vehicles they fit. Is the 144 you have the same thing that is in our S-series. He seems to think that you have the 144 and it replaced our stock ones (13x?). I just need to find some online reference to a delco model number for the 2000 6.5L or 7.4L. He isn't grasping that they mount the same way. He even asked me which one the 6.5 or the 7.4 :bonk:

He seems to comprehend what we are wanting to do but not this dam model number thing!
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Postby HenryJ » Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:36 pm

Wow, this guy sure is wanting you to do all the work.

I'll see what I can do about getting a "model number" tomorrow.

Sure seems a little strange that you could not give him the fullsize application and have him find an alternator for you.
He can choose which ever engine he wants, since you will be changing the rear cover it makes no difference, the front half is the same.

I would guess that ANY late model CS144 for a GM vehicle would have the same mounting configuration.

The trick may be finding the cheapest application. The same front cover used on a Buick grand national may cost more than one for a 1500 series pickup?

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Postby F9K9 » Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:50 pm

!) Our stock one is a CS144 ?

2) all CS144s have the same front half, because what little I glanced at the book, there were a lot of years of cars and trucks using them.

3) I admitted I knew squat about them other than I changed alternators before and before alternators. I changed generators/ voltage regulators before most members were a twinkle in Father's eye :lol: I'd like to walk in arned a little better than these first two encounters :lol:
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Postby HenryJ » Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:10 pm

f9k9 wrote:!) Our stock one is a CS144 ?
No, our stock one is a CS130D

2) all CS144s have the same front half, because what little I glanced at the book, there were a lot of years of cars and trucks using them.
While there are many vehicles using the CS144 , there are quite a few different mounts available. Ours uses the two big double mounts.
Some have a threaded hole, or mounts clocked at 12 and 6, some at 9 and 12 etc.

3) I admitted I knew squat about them other than I changed alternators before and before alternators. I changed generators/ voltage regulators before most members were a twinkle in Father's eye :lol: I'd like to walk in arned a little better than these first two encounters :lol:

:lol: Sad to have to tell this guy his job, but we can do that too. You might want to warm up your solder iron, just in case he wants you to install your own stator, I helped with mine ;)

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Postby F9K9 » Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:33 pm

If I have to solder I am in big trouble. An instructor in an advanced law enforcement technical investigative equipment training course accused me of welding with a soldering iron....lmao
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Postby killian96ss » Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:36 pm

HenryJ wrote:killian96ss , Were your housings rear needle bearing cases?
I just caught this one going back through the posts, and it only took me 4 months to reply. :lol: Yes, I guess mine had the needle bearings because the rear looks just like the one in this picture that you posted earlier.

Image

I guess that's why I'm on my third one in only 54k miles, because the first 2 definitely had bearing failures. :x

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Postby HenryJ » Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:45 pm

killian96ss wrote:...I guess mine had the needle bearings because the rear looks just like the one in this picture that you posted earlier. ...
You may be able to swap the rear with the 22-120 rear housing (sealed bearing case). The all use the same armature so the shaft should accept the sealed bearing.

Might be a nice insurance policy? Or wait for #3 to replace it with a sealed bearing case ;)

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Postby killian96ss » Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:26 pm

HenryJ wrote:You may be able to swap the rear with the 22-120 rear housing (sealed bearing case). The all use the same armature so the shaft should accept the sealed bearing.
Does your alternator guy have a source for just the rear housing with the sealed bearing? I don't think I have a good source for this part anywhere around here. All Napa has is Kragen and Autozone, and maybe Napa. They all are lame to some certain degree. :roll:

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Postby HenryJ » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:25 pm

The Lester number for the CS144 is 8219. That is one with the needle bearing rear case. Your local shop needs to understand that what we want is not available "as a model" it needs to be assembled with the parts that we listed. It would be easy if we could just say we need XXXX number alternator. It does not exist. This is a custom assembly from available parts.
Last edited by HenryJ on Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:56 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Postby HenryJ » Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:08 am

RocK wrote:I was driving the CC the other day and it hit me... IF your still having trouble with the alt not putting out enough power would it be possible to put in a resistor that would "trick" the regulator to increase the voltage output at a slower speed like idle and have a switch to turn it of when at highway speeds or over idle.
That is what the sense wire does.
Now that I know a little more about what that does and how it should be connected, it basically does that automatically.

Most regulators do sense the voltage and try to maintain 13.9 volts.
The sense connection on the regulator is for remote sensing of the voltage rather than right at the alternator.
Ideally you would run the wire to your load center. This way the alternator will try to maintain the voltage at that point rather than at the alternator.

That is one "ace in the hole" that I have not added. I think most of the voltage drops were not that the regulator did not know to increase volvage, but more that it was unable to meet amperage demands , which resulted in a voltage drop.

Problem has been solved though. The last version has been working great.

Dennis has two of them on the shelf as I mentioned above.

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Postby malkavian » Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:56 am

Hj with a mile marker 12,000lbs winch and 4 lights on the roof rack along with 2 on the back of the roof rack what amp alternator should I get. I would rather just order from the guy who did yours instead of trying to do it myself.
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Postby HenryJ » Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:44 pm

You will need to calculate the amperes drawn. Keep in mind that it is unlikey that you will berunning all the accessories at the same time.
The stock alternator will run them , but not for long. The alternator will not keep up and you will draw the battery down when that happens.
I would say a CS144 that puts out 120 amps would work. This would still give you close to 100 amps at idle.

No alternator is going to keep up with a winch maxed out. The battery will hopefully make up the difference. If you are not on it full time the system should have time to recover.
Getting the alternator to deliver the power needed at idle is the key. That 12k winch is a power hog! It takes 65 amps with 0 load. Your stock alternator will not deliver 60 amps at idle speeds.

Any improvement in the alternator will be a good thing. Go as big as you can afford.

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Postby malkavian » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:28 pm

Man I didnt realize it took 65 amps. I got the winch for 100.00. It had never been installed according to the guy I bought it from. But any way Yeah I wont be using all of them at the same time like you said. Ill email the guys who did yours and see about getting one week after next. I could swing the 190 amp but didnt know if that would be over kill. I do have a bazooka sub with internal amp. along with the lights and the winch thats pretty much all I will have as far as electrical upgrades. May do the electric cooling fans this summer though.

Thanks for the input and if you dont think the 190 is over kill I may just do that one.
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Postby HenryJ » Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:28 am

Awesome deal on the winch!
I do not think it is over kill go go big. The fans alone would warrant an alternator that will handle a higher load at idle speeds.
I will check with Dennis and make sure your alternator is right.
Keep in mind that a alternator will likely bench, or test higher than it is rated. They can put out more than what they are guaranteed to produce. Your 190 may well put out over 200 amps when cool.

That brings up cooling. The cooling for the alternator is drawn in across the diodes through the back and expelled by the fan or fans.
I added a section of defroster hose from the oval opening in the radiator support. This is between the battery and radiator. This runs to a custom formed shroud. I was unable to find exactly what I wanted, so I formed one using an attachment from a shop vac.
Someday I will find a housing from a Mercedes or BMW. They use cool air ducting.
I'll get some pictures as soon as I finish another install.

Cooler is better for longer life and better power. The CS144 higher amp alternator will not have to work as hard, therefore generate less heat and with the addition of ducting remain cooler since it is not drawing in as much engine heated air.

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Postby HenryJ » Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:06 pm

Here are some photos of the cooling duct that I added-

Image

The plastic piece formed to the back of the alternator was a floor attachment for a shop-vac. I used a heat gun to form it , and did some trimming. It is not ideal, but works ok. Some day I will find the piece that BMW uses on their alternators.

Image Image

I really should measure the difference in temperature, but have not. I really do think that it is a good idea and helps with cooling in a congested engine compartment.

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Postby HenryJ » Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:46 am

There have been a few questions and I need to update this thread a little.
I am pretty sure Dennis has sold both alternators that were "on the shelf". One went on Bob's truck and I overheard the other went to someone else locally.

Don't get frustrated in your search for a bigger alternator. Read this thread and everything I went through to assemble a combination that works. I have been through more than you will ever endure.

I can't stress enough to buy one with the correct rear housing. That sealed rear bearing really is needed. Needle bearing failures seem to be the biggest problem with the CS144. If you find a good buy you can always buy the rear housing and bearing to swap. That is what most shops would have to do anyway.

If you are looking for a CS144 alternator you need: CS144 alternator with-
22-120 rear housing (sealed bearing case)
D413 regulator
52mm pulley (2mm smaller than stock)
Choose a stator that fits you budget and requirements.
Pigtail to convert to the new connector.


Don't get excited about big ratings. We don't really care if it puts out tremendous amounts of amperage at 3000 rpms. The key is to provide in excess of 70 amps at idle speeds. That really is the whole problem here. Our stock CS130D will not provide the needed amperage at idle speeds , even when run faster using a smaller pulley.

Regulators- There are well over a dozen choices. Several of which will work, but not all properly. Some will set the light, some will create heating issues, some do not include remote sensing. The one I am using works great. There may be others, I don't know about any of them.

The CS144 is not the only answer. There are other alternatives. This just seemed to be the most affordable and available.

My shop is not THE answer. I have no affiliation with them. They were kind enough to work with me and find a combination that works well. Sure I could have just slapped a high amp alternator on a gone with it. That was not enough. As you can see I tried to research and test the best option. I believe that if your alternator includes the parts listed above, it will out perform your stock alternator and you will be pleased. I am.

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Postby HenryJ » Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:03 pm

Another place worth checking into?

DB Electrical
Their prices are in the ballpark. I wonder what they would charge for a CS144 with the "needed" parts?

They sell on ebay too - DB Electrical ebay items

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Postby HenryJ » Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:36 pm

Wiring the regulator:
The regulator has four pins.

The big wire is the sense wire. Labeled "S". It is used to remotely sense the voltage instead of measuring it from the alternator itself. This would be run to the power distribution center or battery if needed.
The next wire is supposed to be the "I" or ignition feed wire. This receives 12v to start the regulator. This basically turns on the alternator. It may be labeled "I/F".
Next to that one is one labeled "L". This should go to a light.
The last small one is labeled "P" and can be used as a tachometer signal. It is a pulse generator.

This is for the CS144 alternator using the D413 regulator.

Now that is the way that all of the pictures and data shows how to do it, but guess what. It doesn't work if you connect the 12v ignition feed wire to the I/F terminal . You have to go to the L terminal :mad:

For some reason the wires are backward. Move your red ignition feed wire one away from the big wire, regardless of how it "should" be.

Mine uses two wires a gray one (Field Duty cycle Signal) and a red one (generator turn on signal)
Mine is wired S - not used, F - gray wire (field duty signal) , L - red wire (turn on signal) , P - not used. That is what the markings on the plug read.

You won't mess anything up by connecting to either of the two middle wires. One will start the system charging the other will not. If it doesn't work connecting to the L terminal , try the F and see if that works.

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Postby HenryJ » Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:26 am

I purchased a 140 amp alternator from NAPA Pt# 13-4644 (CS144 type)
I already have the smaller pulley that came with my March underdrive pulley system.
I bought a pigtail from Autozone and plan to hard wire it into the existing 2 wire harness.

My question is with all the info that I have givin you will I still need to install the D413 regulator? If so is this something I can just go to the local alternator shop and ask for, is there a part# or anything special?
That alternator is listed for 1996-2000 Chev. 1/2-1ton trucks, among other applications.
You will need to change the regulator. That alternator will have a D411 regulator. The I/F terminal is designated for the ignition. You need a D413 regulator with the I/F terminal designated to FR.

A good alternator shop should be able to help you , if you tell them you need a D413 regulator installed. You might even get a break since that D411 is a very popular regulator and yours is good.

Basically in 2001 the regulators needed to change since the PCM has some influence. If you try running the D411 regulator it will constantly charge and build a huge amount of heat. Meltdown heat!

That alternator will also have the needle bearing rear housing. You can change it now or wait for it to fail. That rear bearing seems to be a weak point.

The regulator should run about $25 and the rear housing about the same ($25)

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Postby HenryJ » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:56 pm

I found the regulator today for $10.00
I paid $134.00 for the reman alternator.
I paid $6.00 for the pig tail at autozone.

$150.00 invested so far and now I will see if I will need the longer belt.

Seems like I will probably not be able to find the rear housing with the sealed bearing so I will take my chances with the needle bearing.
The rear housing can always be upgraded when , or if there is a problem with the needle bearings.

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Postby F9K9 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:03 pm

HenryJ wrote:The rear housing can always be upgraded when , or if there is a problem with the needle bearings.


Funny, that you should post this right now. Mine arrived today and it does have the needle bearings.

I may have missed it but, what about belt size?

Mine is supposedly built for my vehicle but, I may hold off on installation until I talk to them on the phone.
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Postby HenryJ » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:20 pm

f9k9 wrote:... what about belt size?
Using the CS144 with the 52mm pulley will require a longer belt.
The stock belt is 20mm X 2428mm
The belt needed with the above combination is 20mm X 2440mm
About 1/2" or 12mm longer.

If you try using the stock sized pulley, it is likely you will need an even longer belt. Dropping down to the smallest available pulley (49mm) you will have to adjust accordingly. Watch the area where the belt comes close to the lower radiator hose. If the belt is too long it will rub the hose and create a hole.

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Postby F9K9 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:46 pm

:!: I fired them off a letter with very specific detailed questions and will keep you all detailed on any "positive" results
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Postby F9K9 » Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:43 am

I just did a little rough measuring of my stock pulley and the one on the 144. The stock is approx. 2 3/8" across the front at the widest point of the lip. The 144 is 2 1/16" across so, it I'm guessing it is a 52 mm.
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Postby WVHogRider » Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:52 am

Inch to MM conversion page--Not sure if this helps. :?

http://www.industrial-enclosures.com/ht ... -inch.html
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Postby Walt » Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:53 am

Google has many uses. You can convert between various forms of measurement as well. I typed in: 235mm in in. This gave me 9.2519685 in :)
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Postby F9K9 » Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:53 pm

HenryJ wrote:
f9k9 wrote:... what about belt size?
Using the CS144 with the 52mm pulley will require a longer belt.
The stock belt is 20mm X 2428mm
The belt needed with the above combination is 20mm X 2440mm
About 1/2" or 12mm longer.


Well, it's in but, the waterfowl must have been raised in the Sahara :shock:

I called Quick Start today about the regulator and pulley. The regulator "D" nomenclature was not known to them. They claimed to use a OEM regulator producer which name starts with "T". The part numbers also begin with the letter "T". The pulleys were listed in SAE so, I think I have a 52 mm pulley. I quized the guy to make sure the regulator was compatible with my '02 and he assured me that it was. They are located outside of Detroit so who knows,

Now is where my luck begins to rear it's ugly head :lol:

The CS130D comes out with the minor encouragement of a screwdriver, The CS144 slides right in. The pigtail, supplied at no charge, snaps in. The stock belt is just a little underlength, I had already picked up a Gates stock sized belt (2428 mm) and a Gates belt marked 2440 MM. The 2440 mm is too short. The belt part number matches the band marked 2440 mm. I tried the Gates 1228 mm (numbers matched) and it was too big. I drive back and things are double checked and the same part numbers are produced. Got my money back and tried Advance and picked up a couple "no name" belts and one worked.

It was long after dark and I tried the new alternator with everything on and the dayliters brought it under 14 volts at idle.

I gues time will tell.
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Postby HenryJ » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:13 pm

I find it hard to believe that they do not know of WAI - "Worldwide supplier to automotive electrical rebuilders"
Who knows maybe we are all alone over here :lol: Here is the D413 regulator information:
D413 regulator
WAI wrote:D413
(Ref. Num. 35-122)
Regulator
12 Volt, B-Circuit, P-L-F-S Terminals, 14.7 Vset, 10 sec. LRC

For:
Delco CS144 Series IR/EF Alternators
Used On:
(1997-88 ) Cadillac
Replaces:
Delco 1116413, 1116430, D600A, D681 (regulator case stamped: 113, 130, 413, 430)
Unit Nos:
Delco 1101294, 1101296, 1101350, 1101490, 1101518, 1101519, 1101578, 1101579, 1101847, 10479995, 10479996, 10480008, 10480009, 10480048, 10480116
Lester Nos:
7904, 7942, 7966, 7969, 8127, 8170
WAI Ref Nos:
1-1683-11DR, 1-1684-11DR, 1-1688-11DR, 1-1689-11DR, 1-1693-41DR, 1-1694-41DR, 1-1700-11DR
Notes:
Used on applications w/ lamp fault indicator.
Features:
Transpo
Soft start
Short-circuit protection

Also consider:
D445XHD Regulator, Transpo ASVR

I don't see and "T" part numbers used in WAI or the Lester interchanges.

Hope it works out OK. Be sure to check the heating problems. The "wrong" regulator that I tried had thermal shutdown. This saved a meltdown. If it smells hot, and feels hot, it is hot. Much like the walking talking duck :mg:
Be sure to give us the make and number of that regulator if you can. If it works , all the options are nice :mg:

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