Bigger alternator

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Postby F9K9 » Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:28 pm

Who knows? I felt like we were on different planets but, time will tell. I did come across the "T" part number manufacturer during an earlier search. it was legit but, am unable tp find it again.
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Postby HenryJ » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:11 pm

I have the exact regulator that you posted the specs for; mine is made by TADITEL model T730. I got to thinking about the electrical connection and really would rather not splice into the factory wiring but all I can find is the connector that fits into the alternator and not the male plug that the factory connection will fit into? Got any ideas where I can find the male connector? I looked at the adaptors that quick start have but would rather not spend that kind of cash on an adaptor that I can make.


http://www.taditel.com/html/CS.pdf
The adapters at quick start are the only option that I know about. The connectors are available , but would have to ordered in bulk quantities so vast that it not an option for just a few people who need them.

You have to decide how you want to do it. You can cut the wires , then solder and heat shrink the splices.
Or you can carefully remove the terminal ends from one and transfer them to the other.
I did lots of switching back and forth, so I added male/female connections inline. That would be a third option.

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Postby F9K9 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:47 pm

I keep getting knocked ofline due to a storm but, here is a PDF cross reference I stumbled upon for regulators

He thought mine was a T437 so, this ain't looking good!
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Postby HenryJ » Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:49 pm

f9k9 wrote:I keep getting knocked ofline due to a storm but, here is a PDF cross reference I stumbled upon for regulators
:lol: Or stumbled past :lol: That is the one in the quote above your post :mg:

It does look like the T730 is the right regulator listed there. The T437 is the one to avoid.
That T437 is the same as the D411 I tried. It heated the alternator terribly and will not work with the PCM.

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Postby F9K9 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:07 pm

HenryJ wrote:
f9k9 wrote:I keep getting knocked ofline due to a storm but, here is a PDF cross reference I stumbled upon for regulators
:lol: Or stumbled past :lol: That is the one in the quote above your post :mg:

It does look like the T730 is the right regulator listed there. The T437 is the one to avoid.


Sorry, I had to get it out quick before I was offline again. You are correct, Brule!
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Postby F9K9 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:48 am

HenryJ wrote:It does look like the T730 is the right regulator listed there. The T437 is the one to avoid.
That T437 is the same as the D411 I tried. It heated the alternator terribly and will not work with the PCM
.


Randy of NQS, INC wrote:Subject: Re: Fw: Invoice No. 5837
The voltage regulator is the T437 by Taditel
Exactly how will it cause a heat related issue?
This is the regulator that Taditel told us to use in place of your CS-130d voltage regulator.

Thank you,
Randy


I wonder if, their are some changes from '01 to '02 in our rigs?
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Postby HenryJ » Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:20 am

There should be no difference in the PCM, but I can not confirm that. The problem is in the I/F terminal. The T437 calls for ignition voltage. The T730 uses input from the PCM. The regulator sees the reduced input as a lack of voltage and trys to make up for it by charging. this builds heat since it never shuts down to cool. You may be able to connect ignition voltage to that terminal, but then the PCM will see that as a fault and perhaps log a trouble code.

I tried several different things to get the D411 / T437 regulator to work. All failed. At first glance they really do look the same as the CS1430D stock regulator, but upon closer inspection of the specifications the difference is obvious. You have to look closely at the function of the I/F terminal. There is a difference. This change took place beginning with the 2001 model year. Previous models from 1996-2000 will function just fine with the D411 / T437 regulator.

I would bet money that this guy has not actually tested this, I have. It will charge the battery. It will run until the thermal protection shuts it down.
Feel free to run your own test. Don't go far away from help though. Best of luck to you.

Oh, watch that needle bearing after you get it hot. It may need to be replaced. They are very sensitive to the overheating. Mine with the sealed bearing survived, but I don't know how the needle bearing will fair.

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Postby F9K9 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:37 am

I edited your last response (Cleaned in up and made it sound like I had gotten the info from elsewhere) on this topic and emailed it back to Randy

Randy wrote:Reed:

I've been working with auto electric for over 30 years and I still learn something new everyday. We have been using the T437 for years in the CS-144 replacing the CS-130D with the regulator you have. Your vehicle comes with the Transpo D748 which is a Taditel T761, they it has a 14.8 volt set point and a 2.5 second delay with LRC.
The T730 you mention has a 10 second delay which is more likely to send the wrong signal to your vehicles computer considering your original voltage regulator uses a 2.5 second delay.
About 3 years ago we didn't know which regulator to use so we called the experts at Taditel. They told us that they use a combo circuit that will accommodate both the I and F circuits and that the internal circuit components on the T437 are the same as the T761, the only difference is that the outside shell's shape is.

Maybe you should call Taditel's tech dept. and if you get different info than what I said above, please let me know right away. I can get you whatever regulator you want.

Thank you,
Randy
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Postby HenryJ » Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:58 pm

He is correct in that the stock alternator comes with the D748 regulator. It's connections are as follows:
P L I/F S
P..Stator
L..Light
F..FR
S..Sense

D411 (T734)
P L I/F S
P..Stator
L..Light
I..IGN
S..Sense

D413 (T730)
P L I/F S
P..Stator
L..light
F..FR
S..Sense

See where the difference lies?

The ten second load response control did not appear to cause any issues.

I did go through quite a bit of trial , error and research to check this all out thoroughly.
Feel free to do the same. You may find out more than I did :mg:

Most of the techs I talked to knew less about this than I do ... now.
I was referred to an electrical guru: Larry Hagemeister. I can PM his phone number if needed. I have not talked to him , as I figured this all out prior to needing his expertise. He is said to understand the systems to the point of inital development for future products. This would be the guy the engineers look to for the answers.

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Postby F9K9 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:03 pm

It appears to be working well for 50 mile hops and under. I have the stock alternator onboard and what few tools it takes to swap them out.

I plan on contacting Taditel support and try to get this lined out if, and when things calm down in southern Lebanon (they are not exactly a US company). It seems that if, Randy is willing to "learn something new" daily that I'll give him the benefit of the doubt!

It is not often that a builder/retailer has been as cooperative as he has. He even bothered to call my cell phone because it was listed in my email signature.

Could it be possible you had a bad regulator or a "once in a life time" botched install with the "211"?
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Postby HenryJ » Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:53 am

Just trying to give you the benefit of my experience. I tried two D411 regulators , as we also thought it might have been a bad one. I ran that regulator on my Redwoods trip, as well as maybe a week or so before. It takes a while before it finally gets to the point that it starts hitting the thermal shut down limit. It may have been a couple weeks before I started noticing symptoms of a problem?
Watch the gauge. You could see it shut down. It first started doing this under a heavy load. AC, highbeam headlights etc. After a few days it would shut down even when cold.

Sorry if I come off wrong. I am only trying to warn you about what to watch out for. I do not think this will harm your truck, or I would not have suggested you try it. I do indeed wish you luck. I was not being scarastic. I do hope it works for you.
There is a difference in the regulators, and the D413 is a better match for our trucks, IMO.

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Postby crew cab sonoma » Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:09 am

if i wanted to install a bigger alt. on my 2000 ext. cab, would ordering a 130-145A from the same year full size truck work?

another alternative to a bigger alt. wire, is to add another stock wire, from a junkyard, in parallel to the existing one.
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Postby HenryJ » Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:03 pm

crew cab sonoma wrote:if i wanted to install a bigger alt. on my 2000 ext. cab, would ordering a 130-145A from the same year full size truck work?
I would think so, but I haven't tried that.
I do know that there is quite a bit more you can get away with on the '96-2000 trucks.
I would give it a try.
Last edited by HenryJ on Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby killian96ss » Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:31 pm

I know I brought this up before, but if anyone just wants a higher output CS130D alternator then Powermaster would be a good choice. They offer the CS130D in a 150 amp version for our trucks. :wink: I guess there is also a difference in the alternators from 2002 to 2003 since Powermaster lists different part #'s for 98-02 and 03-04. :?

Powermaster part # 48231 98-02 S10, 90 amps @ idle and 150 amps @ cruise speed.
Image

Powermaster part # 48233 02-04 S10, 90 amps @ idle and 150 amps @ cruise speed.
Image

The stock alternator is 80 amps @ idle and 105 amps @ cruise speed. :wink:

Steve
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Postby HenryJ » Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:07 pm

killian96ss wrote:The stock alternator is 80 amps @ idle and 105 amps @ cruise speed.
That may be a bit optimistic. I found it to produce less than 60 amps when hot at idle speeds.

We did quite a bit of testing with a 140 amp stator in the CS130D and never were able to get it to produce in the low end like the CS144 does.

I suppose a really tight fit might help the low end performance, but I would be worried about clearances when hot. I probably worry too much :roll:

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Postby crew cab sonoma » Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:50 am

also, ive noticed that the alternators on some 4.3`s have the "ear" on the back half of the case for a rear support bracket, like the one pictured above, and others do not, but otherwise appear to be the same. is there any other difference in these two versions of alternators, such as anything internal?
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Postby killian96ss » Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:02 pm

crew cab sonoma wrote:is there any other difference in these two versions of alternators, such as anything internal?

I doubt they mount any different from 02 to 03 but I could be wrong since I have never looked under the hood of an 03 S10 with the 4.3L. :shrug: Maybe the difference is in the PCM's, although I thought the 02-04 PCM's were the same. :?

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Postby F9K9 » Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:07 pm

An update, nothing more!

Randy wrote:Yes, I went through the forum a bit & will go through it more later, I just wanted to get you the phone number for Taditel, it's xxx-xxx-xxxx, I spoke with Jim xxxxx.
I was told that the insides of the T-437 which we use, are the same as the T-761 (Transpo D478), the type in your alternator.
The only difference is that the regulator in your alternator takes a plug shape that is more rounded on the ends and fits the CS-130D alternator. The T-437 takes a rectangle shaped plug and fits into the CS-121, CS-130 and CS-144 alternators. We then use our D1-W1206 wiring harness adapter to go from the CS-130D plug to the CS-130/144 plug to fit into the alternator.
If you find out anything different from Taditel I would like to know right away. In the past we installed the CS-130D regulator into the CS-144 case. We had to modify the CS-130D regulator and machine the CS-144 case to get the CS-130D regulator to fit.
Also I noticed in the forum some talk about lights, winching and low end output of alternators. We are working on a CS-144 that will produce 300 amps, and hold up, plus a new stator that will produce more power at idle or low engine speeds.

Thank you,
Randy
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Postby F9K9 » Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:19 pm

Just a progress report :!:

I've had no problems thus far with a couple of 200 mile one way trips (no stopping). I feel no need to contact Taditel until I have a failure because I feel that if, I do have the incorrect regulator that Randy will make it good. It is soon going on 2 weeks and I have kept an eye on the voltage gauge per Brule's suggestion. I am quite happy with the 170 amp upgrade so far but, have my fingers crossed.

I did have a failure to start this AM but, that was entirely my fault. I shut down my laptop last night and it froze on the Windows XP™ "windows shutting down" screen. Leaving my Garmin GPS and Maglight charger always hooked up assisted in my battery's demise.

Will report any further news as it develops. I did learn from Brule to not depend on a few minutes of running to bring a battery back up to a serviceable level so, a charger is on it tonight.
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Postby HenryJ » Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:53 am

That sounds very good!
How about a link to the purchase information, including part number, and the price for those who are looking (all the details/specs). A tried and tested alternator at a reasonable price is what people are looking for.

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Postby F9K9 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:03 am

[url=http://www.alternatorparts.com/CS-144_Special_offer.htm]NEW CS-144 type Alternator
Delco-Remy type CS-144 series
140, 170 and 200 Amp aftermarket alternators.
[/url]

140 AMP $169.95
170 AMP $219.95
200 AMP $269.95

Don't worry about the adapter ($17.95) it is included

On the order form it has a remarks section where you list your application and any special additions made to your vehicle. I listed my KC HiLites and LS1 E-fans.

They also make a lot of different alternators for emergency vehicles for their special needs and CS 144 conversions for non GM applications.

I would still give my test a couple more weeks and I don't know how long this special is running.

Feel free to contact RANDY at Phone 1-616-785-7990 eastern time zone or email http://www.alternatorparts.com/
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Postby F9K9 » Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:33 pm

I know that I am a couple of days shy of the two weeks additional time that I requested for my testing of this alternator but, it has been subjected to some extreme testing and has come out of it looking like an viable alternative to Ontario Starter's alternator.

It has it's cons.

1. It costs more than Ontario Starter's alternator.

Pros?

1. Someone that you can talk to from your home. Access to his regulator manufacturer and their techs, their input on a proper regulator with a solid background of producing conversions.

2. Lightened my load. The stock alternator,and belt have been dumped!

The OSR alternator is not mine and I am the only one that has a face to face with them. There is also no trial left. The combination works.Edited above-HJ
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Postby HenryJ » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:11 am

Reed, Thank you so much for taking the time to do some research and test an alternative. I realize it was somewhat painful, but a wealth of information is the harvest.

Now those who have a salvage yard alt. , or off the shelf CS144 , have alternatives to modify it to work with our trucks. That as well as knowing what will work with the regulator they may have.

I am going to relay the information about Taditel to OSR. They may find it to be a cheaper supplier :mg:

Thanks.

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Postby F9K9 » Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:45 pm

Anytime :thumb:

I would have taken the same route you did if, my one shop had any sense. I'll probably swap out the bearings late fall when the stock alternator can handle the fans better.

Something else I would do differently if, I could do it over again, is to go ahead and spend the extra $50 for the 200 AMP one as well as ask Randy for the other bearings.

One a side note :wink:

When I was trying to find the right belt for the swap and the first two weren't working, I bought a stock belt and one the next size larger from Advance. Guess which was almost twice the price of the other? Yep! The stock one was 2x the price. I guess that explains the "supply and demand" stock answer for the price of fossil fuels. :wink:
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Postby HenryJ » Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:07 pm

That is just nuts. You would think the longer belt would cost more :?

That needle bearing rear cover may go a long time. You really have nothing to lose running it until you have a problem. I am sure you are attentive enough to notice when it starts making noise. It should give you plenty of notice when it drys out and starts making noise. Maybe think about checking it in 50k or so. If you have the belt off give it a spin and check it for slack. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

I think earlier in this thread I related how a 160 amp stator may actually bench much higher. Your 170 amp alternator may bench much higher for brief periods. Rating it at 170 amps means it should maintain that amperage for a long period. You may be able to draw much more for shorter terms.
The important thing is that it can maintain the load at low speeds while hot. That is what we are going for here. Gotta keep the voltage up to run the fans fast and AC maxed at idle speeds :mg:

Those prices are really very good. We were shooting for $1 per amp. That would be excellent, but may not be very realistic. I do think if you have the information and are able to assemble one yourself, it can be done easily.
The main thing is that now we know a little more and can help advise those on what to look and look out for when seeking a bigger alternator.

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Postby killian96ss » Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:33 pm

When the needle bearings go out on the CS144 it sounds like a whining noise that can easily be confused with a transmission problem. The whine will get louder with increased rpm's. I have had two CS144's fail on my SS and my third one seems to be holding up just fine. :wink: Hopefully this one will hold up for a while. :pray:

Here is the only picture I have of the CS144 in my SS.

Image

Steve
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Postby F9K9 » Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:34 pm

HenryJ wrote:That is just nuts. You would think the longer belt would cost more :? ................................................


Luckily, I was able to return the stock one along with, the first two. In retrospect, I think one of the first two would have worked. I probably had the belt improperly "threaded/routed. :lol: This was my first time messing with a serpentine belt. I was familiar with the multiple belts and using a pry bar on the alternator (or power steering pump} to adjust the tension and not a belt tensioner. Then again, I remember when a woman's stocking could replace a broken belt and get you home :lol:


I'll take your advice on waiting on the bearings.
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Postby crew cab sonoma » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:31 am

what about the "AD-244" style alts.?
i went to Autozone and had them show me the stock alt. for my 2000 truck, and a 145A version for a 2000 Silverado.
i thought it would be a CS144, but it was a AD-244 type? these look similar our stock CS-130D`s, but like the 144, are larger in diameter.

it looks like it will bolt and plug right up... same regulator connector as the CS-130D.

here is a GM pic for 2007 Silverado 4.3 with the AD-244 alt...

also notice this engine has distributorless ign. system, and a smaller, "electric" throttle body...
here is a link describing the engine changes...


Linked the long urls-HJ
Last edited by crew cab sonoma on Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby crew cab sonoma » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:51 am

also, i just happened to notice over the weekend, that my 2000 EC only has a single red wire in the pigtail to the alt. regulator connector, but the CC has two wires... the red, plus a white wire...

whats the purpose of the second wire on the CC?
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Postby HenryJ » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:32 pm

crew cab sonoma wrote:...whats the purpose of the second wire on the CC?
The answer is just a few posts up from this one - LINK

crew cab sonoma wrote:what about the "AD-244" style alts.?
Those alternators may be a good option. I did not test them as good cores were not readily available.
I will say that I did see a comparison of the stators. The CS144 has a really beefy stator. That may be why they are able to build low rpm amps.

Give it a shot! They may even be a better solution :mg:
Last edited by HenryJ on Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby crew cab sonoma » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:04 am

an ign. signal? like the older SI style alts used? so why would the 2000 truck not need it? i have swapped the alts between the 2 trucks, and both operate and charge just fine, so it would appear the second circuit isnt used, or needed?

i may try one in the future, if i add more electrical accesories, so far the stock 130D is doing fine.

any idea what the differences are between the CS-130D, and the AD-130`s are? they look VERY similar....
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Postby HenryJ » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:13 am

crew cab sonoma wrote:an ign. signal? like the older SI style alts used? so why would the 2000 truck not need it? ....
The 2000 and earlier may not need it. For 2001-up the PCM uses this interface to influence the regulator.

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Postby HenryJ » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:15 pm

My alternator is back in the shop.
It was still working but I was seeing a slight drop in voltage. As you know a drop in voltage means that there is not sufficient amperage available. It was also running hotter than usual. That can indicate it working too hard to maintain.
I took it in to be checked and we found one brush may have been floating. All the diodes were good. It does have six 70 amp diodes. The armature was turned and it again benched well past 200 amps at 14.7 volts.
I installed it started at over 14 volts , but within a few minutes dropped below 12 volts and it did not charge. I was able to drive home on the battery with the voltage down to 11.5 volts.

I took it off and went in the the alternator shop. It tested bad. Very little amperage and with a bounce like a floating brush as well as low voltage. Definitely a problem.

I need to be able to depend on the alternator. The stock unit is just not enough with modifications and the increased demand placed upon it.

I will say that I am losing confidence in the CS144 platform. It had been rock solid up to this point. I can not identify a cause. I may not be the easiest on an alternator, but far from the worst. I have added a cooling duct to keep it cool.
Heat is the only thing that comes to mind. We have been pushing 100 degrees here.

The change in design from the older CS144 case was to increase cooling. The stock CS130D has two internal fans. The CS144 has one internal and one external.

I plan to investigate a Bosch 130 amp unit tomorrow.

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Postby F9K9 » Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:58 pm

Brule, if mine takes a "belly up" routine I'll stick with my original builder and then we can cover 2 courses of action for future reference for members looking at the mod.
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Postby HenryJ » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:24 pm

Tried the CS144 again today after finding several problems. I was convinced it would work this time, but I was wrong. The assistant at the shop bet me a milkshake that I had a problem with the pick-up.
I need to tell him tomorrow that I like strawberry.

I measured the Bosch 130 amp optional alternator. It is too long and will not fit, as well as being clocked wrong.

So, I bought a new NAPA 130 amp alternator. I believe this is the AD244. I am not sure of that yet though.
It is part number 1N-4801 , NNE new alternator $189 and has a lifetime warranty.
Bolts in no swapping pigtails. The stock belt will be too short. I will have a good part number for a new belt tomorrow.
It is a slightly lower voltage range than the CS144, but matches stock better. That is even with the stock size 54 mm pulley. I am going to test it "out of the box".
So far this looks like a better alternative for KISS.
Off the shelf , new, lifetime warranty, readily available.

More to come.

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Postby F9K9 » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:09 pm

HenryJ wrote:...........So far this looks like a better alternative for KISS.
Off the shelf , new, lifetime warranty, readily available...............


Sounds promising. Does it have your preference for bearings?
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Postby HenryJ » Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:37 pm

This was somewhat a gut reaction. I was sold on the CS144, and I was wrong. Mine was just not dependable, and complicated. No way I could grab one locally in a tough spot. I did not do exhaustive research before this purchase. I ordered them all in measured them up and made the best guess at which would be the best choice to test.

F9K9 wrote:Does it have your preference for bearings?
Pretty much all have gone to sealed bearings. The old CS alternators are about the last of the old needle bearing cases.
The newer style ventilated cases use sealed bearings. As to how durable they are, I do not know yet.

Part of the problem is that they are just too new to know how durable they are and what sort of problems there might be. At least that is the way it works here in our little backward township.

For an application I used a 2001 Suburban with the 5.3L and high output alternator. There are several choices. Prices range from around $300 for the Bosch that was too long to fit nicely, down to around $175 for a remanufactured delco unit. There was less than $20 price difference between rebuilt and new. The rebuilts are likely high because there is a lack of cores available. Prices should get better with time.

It is close to 100 outside and it held 13.6 - 13.9 volts with the fans and AC going even at idle speeds. Engine temps were around 200, which is normal for the hot weather.
Since it seems to be holding when hot, I think it is a keeper.

Image

The CS144 was replaced by this one. It may be that the increased ventilation and setting the rectifier, regulator and diodes externally are an advantage.

Time will tell. Right now I need time for the rose colored glasses to fade.

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Postby adrenalnjunky » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:30 pm

HJ - see how the windings in your alt there are copper-colored? I have noticed that mine are dark, almost black. Is that bad?

I also have been thinking I've had alt issue for a while now - noticebly with intermittent motor noise coming through my stereo. It's worse with my XM unit turned on, as I think that aftermalket unit is less regulated than my Kenwood Excelon headunit.
Thanks, CHRIS
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Postby HenryJ » Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:42 pm

I had quite a bit of noise on the Ham radio with the stock alternator. I added a heavy duty filter and that pretty much took care of it.

I would not get too worried about the color of the coating in the copper windings. They tend to blacken and fade with age. Some look almost black new. It is a coating only. If it is cracking lots or flaking off , then there could be a problem.

I'll try to pay some attention to alternator noise with the new alternator. I had not even thought to listen for that. I know that the CS144 was a little noisy too. Actually it seems like it was noisier than the stock one? I don't really remember for sure. Thanks for the heads up :thumb:

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Postby adrenalnjunky » Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:41 pm

my bigger concern is that the noise will come and go. I'm an ex-car stereo shop installer and know most of the methods of fishing noise out of a system, and well, sometimes you just can't get it all.

I notice it most with the XM tuner on - it's FM-modulated, but I bought a kit that actually plugs in between your headunit and your car antenna wire, to effectively make it a direct connected type of system. It helped me a ton with traveling - I rarely have to pick a new FM modulation unless I go somewhere that has a station exactly on the channel I'm using.
Thanks, CHRIS
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Postby HenryJ » Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:29 am

adrenalnjunky wrote:my bigger concern is that the noise will come and go...
Mine was at 50% on the brushes in the fourth year. That could be what is happening. The tension is reduced on the brushes and you are getting some intermittent floating?

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Postby HenryJ » Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:50 pm

The CS144 bench tested good. We are kind of at a loss for what is going on there. Time to set it aside and work on it after a rest.

The AD244 is indeed what I am running now. It has been functioning well. The belt I used is longer than stock. AC Delco part # 6K960 (96" six groove belt)

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Postby HenryJ » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:22 am

Reflecting upon this some more and trying to reason what may be happening, I have a theory.

The CS144 did have problems. It took time for them to fully surface. This drew the battery down. Once repaired the alternator was trying to bring the battery back up and heated. I know that an alternator is not designed to charge a dead battery. I am really running these things through the ringer and I was doing some worst case testing in this instance. Anyway, this caused the regulator to shut down. This is it's way of protecting itself. That is my theory at this point.
There is not a heavy duty version of the D413 regulator that we are using. A heavy duty unit without the thermal protection may be an answer. There are risks of meltdown though.

The AD244 was able to function and did bring the battery back to full charge without overheating. That is a good thing.
The more I think about the AD244, the more I like the whole idea. Maybe it does not have the beef that the high amp CS144 had, but it does seem to be working better thus far. Heck if it can pull a battery that was down to 11.5 volts back to life and the other could not, that does say something.
HenryJ wrote:...If the CS144 would cooperate with the PCM, and run cool enough, it would be a nice option. I like the dual fans , and potential for better cooling that the CS130D case incorporates.
There has to be a reason that they went to so much trouble to ventilate the case on this design. The Bosch unit and the stock CS130D have the same sort of ventilated case. I think it is an advantage.

The AD244 does appera to be just an updated version of the CS144. It could probably be beefed up to put out more since it would remain cooler. Maybe I'll find out someday.

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Postby F9K9 » Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:50 pm

I am having mixed emotions with your evaluation of the CS144 but, am glad you are pioneering this electrical mod. I might have 6 hours burning my forward 6 off road lights and under 1 hr on my rear ones and it seems to hold up for me thus far. I don't have a winch and cannot add anything to your evaluation.

We do need to try to figure out what might be best for members like Mike who is discovering that the Taurus E-Fan conversion has different affects on our 4.3Ls 4WDs as compared to the slammed 2WDs. You always questioned the Taurus conversion but, I see why Mike felt compelled to try it.

I'll try to help all that I can but. my 144 is a yr younger than yours was when you determined it was inadequate.
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Postby HenryJ » Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:09 pm

My problems all started with a defective manufacturer install of a shaft in a rotor. This was likely the cause of many problems along this journey.The brushes were not properly aligned with the rotors on the shaft. Once they wore a little they started to float. It was probably not working well for quite some time. That is why the battery ran down and that is what took out the regulator. Trying to quick fix, the brush pin did not get pulled and that may have been what fried the regulator, who knows. Way too much happening in a rush. It was time to slow down.

You may be just fine. Remember that you are running a very different regulator. Your regulator may be similar to the one used in the AD244. It is imprinted with I/F. I know that our PCM requires the "F" (FR / computer) and not the "I" (ignition).The AD244 regulator may do both as yours does.

The D411HD regulator would be a good choice, however it is only listed as "I" and will not work. Your T437 cross referenced to that regulator and is working.

Keep in mind that you are not the only one drowning ducks around here.

Thus far the simple solution seems to be the readily available, over the counter ,late model fullsize high output AD244 alternator. You can pick one up locally anywhere and it is plug-n-play.

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Postby F9K9 » Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:27 pm

HenryJ wrote:...Keep in mind that you are not the only one drowning ducks around here.

Thus far the simple solution seems to be the readily available, over the counter ,late model fullsize high output AD244 alternator. You can pick one up locally anywhere and it is plug-n-play.


All of you hard work and research is very much appreciated by the majority of us.!

Thanks!
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Postby HenryJ » Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:01 pm

I clamped the ammeter on today and loaded up the AD244.
At idle I was able to apply 86 amps with a voltage drop to 13.4 volts.
That doesn't quite have the low end grunt that the CS144 did, IIRC, but is no slouch either.
It holds 13.8 volts with about 75 amps load. That is DRL, Stereo playing, Ham radio on, AC on high and fans running. This was warm, not hot so the performance may drop a little.
This is just past half the rating, but probably an acceptable load for extended periods.

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Postby 2kwik4u » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:44 am

What are your thoughts on upgrading the wire that runs from the alternator to the battery?

I'll again reference my old roomates 2wd-4.3/auto truck. We had the Taurus fan running on his, with very few other electrical mods. The voltage when hot would drop VERY VERY low. We took the truck to the local stereo shop and added a 2ga wire from the alternator to the battery. Voltage increased significantly on the gauge (although we never checked at the battery to see what it rose to.

Same scenario on a friends Syclone. Was running lean one night at the track. Noticed the voltage was low during the run, added a larger gauge wire, and the fueling came back inline the next trip out. We suspect that the lower voltage was keeping the injectors from opening properly.

I don't think I have either scenario in the truck currently, however I would like to get the most from any alternator upgrades I do.

Any thoughts on this?
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Postby HenryJ » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:52 am

[url=http://www.s-10crewcab.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2948#29801]
HenryJ wrote: I checked things out and I am satisfied with the stock wiring. The wire from the alternator appears to be 6 or 8 gauge. This should handle up to 200 amps pretty easily.
The battery cables are only the next size larger, so if I were to upsize the alternator wire , then upsizing the battery cables would be next.

Having looked things over I think that it will be OK. There are good grounds to the engine and frame. Their size looks OK too.
[/url]I did add a 4 gauge wire from the alternator. Both positive and negative just to make sure, but I do feel the stock stuff is adequate. It is twice the size of older models.

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Postby 2kwik4u » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:34 am

While it might not help, it certainly can't hurt. That sound about right?? :D

Thanks again!
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Postby killian96ss » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:45 am

I run custom made 1/0 gauge battery cables and 2 gauge alternator and accessory cables on my SS. :D

My voltage never drops. :lol:

Innovative Wiring makes real nice battery cable and wiring harness upgrades. :D

The larger battery and alternator cables are much better than stock. :wink:

I tried to get a GP going here, but nobody was interested. :(

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Postby HenryJ » Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:28 pm

The AD244 has been doing a pretty good job. Hot with a load the voltage might drop as low as 13.6 volts.

A glutton for punishment, I am again testing the CS144. It benched good and all I can surmise is that the regulator may have a thermal protection of some kind.
It loaded to 105 amps and still maintained 13.4 volts at idle speed.
I am going to run it a day or two and see how it compares.

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Postby 2kwik4u » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:06 pm

Did I read right that you are using the high amp alternator from a late model suburban?

Was going to try and start tracking down some costs on getting one for my truck, but wasn't sure what year to chose.

Thanks again for all the testing. It's greatly appreciated, and has saved several of us a TON of agrivation and money in the process.
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Postby HenryJ » Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:44 pm

Yes.
HenryJ wrote: I bought a new NAPA 130 amp alternator. It is NAPA part number 1N-4801 , NNE new alternator $189 and has a lifetime warranty...For an application I used a 2001 1500 Suburban with the 5.3L and high output alternator...The belt I used is longer than stock. AC Delco part # 6K960 (96" six groove belt)
NAPA Online wrote:Item#: NNE1N4801

Price: $199.99
tax and shipping not included

Disclaimer: The stated price may vary from the in store price and may change at anytime.


Attributes:
Features & Benefits:Premium Alternator With 100% New Component Parts; Electronics - Heavy Duty Rectifiers With 50 Amp Rated Diodes For Longest Service Life; Bearings - High Temperature Grease & Seals; Computer Tested Und
Amp Rating:130 Amps
Type of Pulley:6 Grooves
Type of Regulator:INT

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Postby HenryJ » Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:25 am

Back and forth, back and forth...
The AD244 is back in there.

The CS144 did work, but it would drop voltage at idle after heat soak. Bringing up the rpm it would recover. I am already running the smaller pulley to run it faster and there is just no way I can run it faster than that.
I really doesn't make sense. Engine temps are well within normal range, and after it has been shut off for a little while the heat must be affecting it somehow. That or there is something else that is not right. Perhaps the rotor that was replaced is not a good match for the stator. There is more to be done here.
This is really of no importance to someone who it interested in a CS144 upgrade, since this seems to be case specific to the alternator that I am dealing with. Several little problems that lead us off track.

Testing will continue for the AD244. I have a recent comparison with the CS144, so differences should be fresh.

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Postby HenryJ » Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:45 pm

The AD244 has been intermittently illuminating the battery light. No set pattern or reason thus far. Voltage holds good.

The regulator used in the CS144 was a different brand, so a new one has been ordered as well as a new rotor.

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Postby bgs » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:39 pm

I've been reading this thread and Henry J posting over at the s10 forum
regarding the AD 244. I did a bit of looking and found this.
It seems one can obtain the AD 244 in diff amps as well
as an option of an extra heavy duty rectifier.

http://www.alternatorparts.com/ad_alter ... r_page.htm

I too am looking for a reliable alt that can handle my one
amp gobbler e-fan and other accs I have. I'm running a
built CS-130 with a 1 7/8" pulley on it and it has held up
well. I'm going on 7.5 years in regards to the Optima
deep cycle battery with zero complaints about it's
service. I admit I'm interested in the AD 244 but
with Henry J's report of it starting to act up, I'm
hesitant.
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Postby HenryJ » Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:35 am

The 2001 PCM can be very difficult to work with. That may be part of my problem. Thus far the AD244 has been performing just fine.
A smaller pulley doesn't appear to be needed , or of any advantage for this alternator as far as I can see. That is good in that it will turn slower and increase the lifespan.

I still need more time to make a decision as to the best choice here. This one may be the right answer though.

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Postby Jigg » Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:36 am

So i just installed a set of March Pulleys and this 200a alternator. It quotes 75 amps at idle, but the meter drops down to like 11V at normal idle. This is with headlights and stereo on... no other accessories.

I did add a 4ga wire from the alt to the battery... would adding a 4ga ground be necessary as well?

After 1000 RPMS, it works awesome... but under 1000 RPMS, it's worse than stock. Any suggestions?
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Postby HenryJ » Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:29 am

Go back to the stock crank pulley and keep the smaller alternator pulley to run it slightly faster.

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Postby Jigg » Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:32 am

Thanks Brule! Any other option than going back to the stock crank pulley?

To be quite honest, i'd rather keep the pulleys than the alternator... I'd try another alternator if it'd work better.
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Postby HenryJ » Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:53 am

Probably not. The problem is that you can not get a pulley small enough to bump the rpms.

A 52mm pulley with the stock crank pulley was just enough for me. I did find one as small as 49mm, but they are hard to find and I suspect yours may be that small already.

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Postby Jigg » Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:31 am

I guess what i'm not getting is that countless people have installed the March Pulleys with the stock alternator with no noticable power loss... what's the difference between stock and an upgraded alt that would cause it to lag at 800 rpms?
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Postby HenryJ » Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:06 am

The CS144 seems to need a few more rpm. I don't have a good answer as to why. The AD244 doesn't, a bump in rpm makes no difference.

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Postby Jigg » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:21 am

Any thoughts on a pulley like this?

My pulley is a 1.875"... this one's a 1.650"... I'd think it'd bring the alternator speed up just enough to produce adequate power again at idle.
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Postby HenryJ » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:13 am

47mm to 42mm is a pretty good drop. It might work.

Some things to think about: Smaller pulley, less surface area. That could equal slippage under load.
Aluminum pulleys don't do well in the dirt. It acts as an abrasive and wears them out pretty quickly.

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Postby Jigg » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:24 am

Thanks for all of your help Brule!!!!

I ordered it, sometimes it pays to be an MSD vendor :lol:

The truck doesn't see much dirt lately, and probably won't for quite awhile... but i'll definitely keep an eye on it. Thanks for the heads up!

As far as slippage goes... I'm just going to cross my fingers. If it does turn into a problem, I guess i'll figure something else out.

I might have to either find a different alternator nut, or a thinner walled socket, as the one i used for the March one was just small enough to work.
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Postby HenryJ » Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:37 pm

The one you are using is based on the CS130D alternator. I bumped mine a little to get past the voltage drop. It never did perform like the CS144. I gave up on it pretty early. Perhaps it is a viable alternative.

$214.90 is pretty close to that $1 per amp. Add the price of that pulley $44.90 for a total of $259.80

Keep us apprised as to how it works out.

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Postby Jigg » Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:26 pm

Will do!

I doubt i would have needed the pulley if it weren't for my March Pulleys (the alternator came with a stock sized pulley on it), but we'll see. I really have no issues going to a different alternator if it means being able to keep the pulleys, as they make a definite difference in the truck's performance with the 33's.
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Postby F9K9 » Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:45 pm

May or may not be relevant but, my CS144 170 amp alt is still doing the trick and I think that I am past my 1st yr anniversary. I'm not running a winch but, it seems to support the LS-1 e-fans and 8 major lights when needed.
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Postby Jigg » Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:56 am

CS144... 105A at idle

CS130D... 95A at idle

I definitely should've researched the alt a bit more before buying... doh!
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Postby HenryJ » Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:00 am

Wrong front case and we don't know if it has the sealed bearing rear case. You would need to specify the correct pulley too.

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Postby Jigg » Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:00 am

HenryJ wrote:Wrong front case and we don't know if it has the sealed bearing rear case. You would need to specify the correct pulley too.


Right, but just knowing that the platform can be built to that...
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Postby HenryJ » Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:17 am

Oh , it can. They make a real brute of an alternator. Mine pegged the bench well over 200 amps. I wasn't able to load it hard enough to get much past 100 amps at idle IIRC.

I hope to resume testing of it eventually. Longevity may be an issue.

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Postby Jigg » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:46 pm

Aaaand... turns out the March pulleys are actually 1.65", I must've been mistaken on the 1.875". So the MSD pulley did absolutely nothing in my favor (aside from look really cool). It did push the belt out about 3/16"... is that a big deal? It just looked like the belt was running on a slightly different portion of the fixed pulley on the engine (between the alt and the ac compressor).

Anyways, I think i'm going to return this alternator and get a different one. Any suggestions? I don't care if it puts out a ton of peak power, more low end power is more appealing to me right now. The Powermaster 150A units look pretty nice... but they're still built off of the CS130D.
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