Replace Positive & Ground cables?

Modified and aftermarket systems, lights, wiring, etc.

Moderator: F9K9

User avatar
Rockrz
Crew Elite
Crew Elite
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:18 am
Location: Texas

Replace Positive & Ground cables?

Post by Rockrz »

I thought I saw a thread where someone had replaced their positive and ground cables with larger diameter cables for better ground and better overall flow of power for trucks running alot of accessories.

Anybody know where this thread is?

OR, does anyone know where you can buy these larger diameter cables at?
User avatar
roadrunner
Crew K Elite
Crew K Elite
Posts: 1267
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:39 pm
Location: NW KS

Post by roadrunner »

Welding supply stores will sell bulk cable up to 4/0 size. Cable ends can be secured at forklift or some electrical supply stores. They require a crimp-tool to fabricate or you have to solder the ends on the cables. Other than that not sure where you might buy them pre-made.
2001 CC LS, pewter, stock, 4.3,Wait4meperformance, CFM throttle blade, Helix throttle body spacer, 4spd auto, 3button electric 4x4 shift, heavy duty factory suspension, Bilsteins, 1" rear wheel spacers, skid plates.
User avatar
HenryJ
Admin K Elite
Admin K Elite
Posts: 12705
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:14 pm
Location: Ontario, Oregon
Contact:

Post by HenryJ »

Avoid the welding cable. The insulation does not do well in an automotive application. It breaks down with exposure to the elements and oils. Been there , done that. Paid the price and did it twice.
It is cheap and flexible, but there are better choices. Choose a good quality automotive or marine grade cable.

"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving!
- ThunderII KE7CSK
User avatar
roadrunner
Crew K Elite
Crew K Elite
Posts: 1267
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:39 pm
Location: NW KS

Post by roadrunner »

Hey Brule! There are also different grades of welding cable as well. I have used 1/0 and 2/0 sizes with neoprene based covering (double thick) with excellent results. Have made jumper cables out of it as well.
2001 CC LS, pewter, stock, 4.3,Wait4meperformance, CFM throttle blade, Helix throttle body spacer, 4spd auto, 3button electric 4x4 shift, heavy duty factory suspension, Bilsteins, 1" rear wheel spacers, skid plates.
User avatar
Rockrz
Crew Elite
Crew Elite
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:18 am
Location: Texas

Post by Rockrz »

HenryJ wrote:Choose a good quality automotive or marine grade cable.
Where might one find "good quality" automotive or marine grade cable?

And, is it best to soder the connections or crimp.
And...should I use copper ends?
User avatar
Rockrz
Crew Elite
Crew Elite
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:18 am
Location: Texas

Post by Rockrz »

What size cable do S-10 trucks have from the factory from battery ground, and from battery positive?

I found some heavy duty marine grade cable online at:
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/st ... 001/52927/

Think these will work?
User avatar
HenryJ
Admin K Elite
Admin K Elite
Posts: 12705
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:14 pm
Location: Ontario, Oregon
Contact:

Post by HenryJ »

roadrunner wrote:There are also different grades of welding cable as well. I have used 1/0 and 2/0 sizes with neoprene based covering (double thick) with excellent results. Have made jumper cables out of it as well.
Neoprene would not be on my list for use in an automotive application. Give it time. I used to think it was a good idea too, until I had a short on the HenryJ. The welding cable shielding is just way too soft. I must be to be flexible. They might be alright as jumper cables. I bet you do not store them under the hood subject to oil and heat though.
Do as you wish. Many have used welding cable. I learned that there is a huge difference in the shield. I will not make the mistake of using welding cable again.

I use both soldered terminals and crimped. Heat shrink to seal. Brass plated terminals at the battery and copper lugs at the studs are what I normally use.

The stock cables may be 4 ga at best. The alternator 6 ga. That is just a guess though.

Think about what you are trying to gain.
4 ga will handle 500 amps in a 4' length and 200 amps for a 10 ft run.
6 ga will handle 200 amps for a 10 ft length.
8 ga will handle 200 amps for a 5 ft length.

I think we are not in bad shape. I did add a 4 ga ground from the battery to the alternator mount and a 1/0 cable from the battery to the alternator positive. Those are overkill for sure. The starter wire size may gain more from some heat protection than anything. I am not sure that the current wiring is all that insufficient.
Personally I think it is not all that bad.
I keep looking back to check it everytime this subject comes up.
The train of thought seems to be that older systems used bigger cables. That is true, however ours splits it up and uses multiples. We have a 4 ga to the starter and also one to the electrical center. Older systems tapped the battery cable at the starter, hence the need for a larger cable. They may also had longer runs. Our alternator is inches from the battery. Older fullsize trucks had feet of cable between them.

Now, what additional loads are you adding to the cables? The accessories you add inside that draw from the electrical center. I have a few. The items that draw big amperage are tied back to the battery with the exception of the fans, which draw power where the supply for the electrical center attaches. If I were to upgrade another cable , this would be the first. I really don't think it will be needed though as you can see I only use half the rating for the cable.

Look to the wire gauge tables for some ideas on what size for what load.
Take the advice of many sources and do what makes sense for your vehicle. Is there a gain to installing bigger cables? Perhaps. Will it be cost effective and is it really needed?

"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving!
- ThunderII KE7CSK
User avatar
Rockrz
Crew Elite
Crew Elite
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:18 am
Location: Texas

Post by Rockrz »

HenryJ wrote:Is there a gain to installing bigger cables?
I read in another board somewhere that a guy put in larger cables and got right of his headlight flicker.

I have the same thing, and did have before I installed my electric fans. Maybe that's due to a weak ground, I don't know.

But, when I'm sitting there idling at night with the headlights on...they flicker a little. Enough that I've had people see this and tell me my alternator must be going out, which it isn't.

I just thought maybe adding larger cables might solve this.
Plus, I've heard those guys that run those big bad sound systems do this.
User avatar
HenryJ
Admin K Elite
Admin K Elite
Posts: 12705
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:14 pm
Location: Ontario, Oregon
Contact:

Post by HenryJ »

Add cables of the correct size for the loads. Add cables to the "big bad sound systems"

A weak ground is possible. Test the alternator. I think you will find that our idle is a little too low to maintain voltage. Amperage draw at idle may exceed the available output of the alternator. A 4mm smaller alternator pulley will be enough to make the difference in output. Try bumping the idle just enough to get rid of the flicker. If that works, your output at idle speed is the problem, not your cables.
If your headlamps are not getting sufficient supply then bigger cable may help. Test the voltage at the light. Read the post on Lakes, streams and other charging system things. The whole system must work together. Make sure the pump and lake are up to the task. Bigger streams will not fix a weak pump, or tiny lake with a leak.

"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving!
- ThunderII KE7CSK
User avatar
Rockrz
Crew Elite
Crew Elite
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:18 am
Location: Texas

Post by Rockrz »

OK, thanks for the link.
I'll go check that out cause I don't want to add bigger cables if it doesn't do anything for me.
[size=75]I'm drivin a...2003 Chevy S10 Ex Cab LS 2WD, Auto, 4.3L, Vin Code X[/size]
User avatar
roadrunner
Crew K Elite
Crew K Elite
Posts: 1267
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:39 pm
Location: NW KS

Post by roadrunner »

HenryJ wrote:
roadrunner wrote:There are also different grades of welding cable as well. I have used 1/0 and 2/0 sizes with neoprene based covering (double thick) with excellent results. Have made jumper cables out of it as well.
Neoprene would not be on my list for use in an automotive application. Give it time. I used to think it was a good idea too, until I had a short on the HenryJ. The welding cable shielding is just way too soft. I must be to be flexible. They might be alright as jumper cables. I bet you do not store them under the hood subject to oil and heat though.
Use whatever you like Brule. Personally I've used and had excellent results with the welding cable for over 30 yrs in multiple different vehicles. No I don't keep my jumpers under the hood but the battery cables are there all the time all kinds of weather. No problems. :)
I used to live a bit further north and those heavy cables come in pretty handy when it's -20 out. :wink: Both on the battery and if needed as jumpers. (usually for starting other people's cars etc with light cables or small weak batteries)
2001 CC LS, pewter, stock, 4.3,Wait4meperformance, CFM throttle blade, Helix throttle body spacer, 4spd auto, 3button electric 4x4 shift, heavy duty factory suspension, Bilsteins, 1" rear wheel spacers, skid plates.
User avatar
drperry
Crew Elite
Crew Elite
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:31 pm
Location: Grande Prairie, Alberta

Post by drperry »

Powerline boster cables FTW!

My dad won't let me take them, though...

He used to work for the power company, so he got that stuff for free :lol:
2005 Chevy Blazer
5 Speed 4x4
Yogi
New Member
New Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:49 am
Location: League City, TX (Houston)

Post by Yogi »

HenryJ wrote: ..........I think we are not in bad shape. I did add a 4 ga ground from the battery to the alternator mount and a 1/0 cable from the battery to the alternator positive. Those are overkill for sure. The starter wire size may gain more from some heat protection than anything. I am not sure that the current wiring is all that insufficient.
Personally I think it is not all that bad.........
I believe that the wiring diagrams show a fuseable link in the cable from the alternator to the battery. Did you provide some sort of protection here?
User avatar
HenryJ
Admin K Elite
Admin K Elite
Posts: 12705
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:14 pm
Location: Ontario, Oregon
Contact:

Post by HenryJ »

They do show one, but I have yet to find it :) The fusible link is shown to be between the alternator and the electrical center.

I did not add a fusible link between the battery and alternator. Do you know if there is one available for 1/0 cable? Would such a thing, if it exists even fit in a six inch length of cable?

I think the system is pretty well protected by the Maxi fuses. The accessories are where trouble usually starts. Older systems used lots of fusible links. Today the Maxi fuses have replaced many of them.

I am not too worried about the cable I added to the alternator. It is separated from the battery by a marine disconnect switch. Should a short exist that does not stop with an alternator failure, the switch would melt down before a battery or fire. At least that is how I hope it would work ;)

"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving!
- ThunderII KE7CSK
Yogi
New Member
New Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:49 am
Location: League City, TX (Houston)

Post by Yogi »

The rule of thumb for fusible links is that you use a link that is 2 wire gauge sizes (4wire gauge numbers) smaller that the size of the circuit you are protecting. Here are some examples:
http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/fusible-link.shtml
In my Google searching I didn't see any for 1/0 cable but maybe someone does make it. Seems like the maxi-fuse is a more reasonable and convenient alternative. It's a major hassle troubleshooting a circuit with a fusible link. Your situation is a perfect example. You know that the circuit is supposed to have a fusible link but where is the darned thing?

BTW, I once made some battery cables for a diesel Suburban. I found cable for sale by the foot and solder connectors at a Car Quest auto parts store, but that was about 10 years ago.
User avatar
HenryJ
Admin K Elite
Admin K Elite
Posts: 12705
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:14 pm
Location: Ontario, Oregon
Contact:

Post by HenryJ »

Yogi wrote:I once made some battery cables for a diesel Suburban. I found cable for sale by the foot and solder connectors at a Car Quest auto parts store, but that was about 10 years ago.
Easily the best way to go. I get all my cable in bulk as well as the terminals. The markup on cables pre-made is huge!
You can build a whole set really inexpensively if you are willing to take the time.
Watch for good quality cable. There are quite a few selling cheap cable and terminals these days.

"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving!
- ThunderII KE7CSK
User avatar
rlrnr53
Crew Elite
Crew Elite
Posts: 557
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:04 pm
Location: Prosperty, West Virginia

Post by rlrnr53 »

I've been wtching this thread with interest since it was started. I have had a few experiences with under sized factory cables in the past. While on the FD, we took delivery of a 1982 C-7500 chevrolet with a 427 in it. From day one, we had starting problems, hot or cold. After having no luck with the local dealers, we decided to change the cables after the warrenty was up. I took the truck to one of the local heavy duty parts stores and had new 2/0 cables made. The difference was like night and day. After the new cables were installed, the truck would be running before you could release the key. This poved to me the value of large battery cables.
[size=75]Mitch
2001 Polo Green Metallic, no mods,(can't afford any)[/size]
User avatar
HenryJ
Admin K Elite
Admin K Elite
Posts: 12705
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:14 pm
Location: Ontario, Oregon
Contact:

Post by HenryJ »

In older applications the need was there. The starters had a huge draw, the cables get hot from the exhaust and many times the wiring to the solenoid was under sized, or routed in such a manner that it gets heated. All the electrical load for the system was connected at the solenoid. Compression ratios were higher and even the rotating mass greater.
Since then there has been more attention to shielding. Electrical loads have their own cable from the battery. Starters use gear reduction. There have been many improvements.

As with anything. If you increase the load additional capacity may be needed. You don't really need a garden hose to fill a teaspoon. On the other hand, I would hate to fill a swimming pool with a milkshake straw ;)

"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving!
- ThunderII KE7CSK
User avatar
rlrnr53
Crew Elite
Crew Elite
Posts: 557
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:04 pm
Location: Prosperty, West Virginia

Post by rlrnr53 »

If I remember right, the truck came with either a 2 ga, or 4 ga. cables. I often wondered what idoit had the nerve to put such a small cable on an wngine that size. I wish that I would have thought to ask the engineeers at the plant where the pump and tank were installed why they didn't replace the cables with larger ones when they installed the second battery and battery switch.
[size=75]Mitch
2001 Polo Green Metallic, no mods,(can't afford any)[/size]
User avatar
HenryJ
Admin K Elite
Admin K Elite
Posts: 12705
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:14 pm
Location: Ontario, Oregon
Contact:

Post by HenryJ »

The resistance when heated aside, 4 ga is good for 150 amps at a length of 10'. That is pretty conservative and double that is probably still comfortable.
The wire from our battery is 4 ga and about 3' long that is good for 654 amps with < .5 v drop.
The cable to our electrical center is twice that long, but still good for 327 amps with less than a .5v drop.

That comes to about more than three times the amperage needed in stock form.
Even if you use the 700 circular mils per amp rule, which is very very very conservative, 4 gauge is good for 135 amps. That is over 1500 watts. Plenty for the starter and with a draw like that from the electrical center, you better be in the market for a good 270+ amp alternator.

In the older rigs there were big improvements by using a remote solenoid. The starter mounted solenoid would draw as much as 60 amps when hot. The 12 gauge wire was just not enough. Most had no more problems once a "hot start kit" was installed.

Something to keep in mind. The alternator senses the voltage at the regulator to determine the needs. If you alter the path, you change the point at which voltage is read. Using the sense wire on the regulator you can remotely sample the voltage. food for thought when changing wire sizes and routing.

"Speed doesn't kill, suddenly becoming stationary does." - Richard Hammond
"Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU want to go?"-Mechanic from Mad Max-
If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving!
- ThunderII KE7CSK
User avatar
Rockrz
Crew Elite
Crew Elite
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:18 am
Location: Texas

Post by Rockrz »

My new '03 truck has much larger cables from the factory than my '96 so I'll be leaving these as is...
[size=75]I'm drivin a...2003 Chevy S10 Ex Cab LS 2WD, Auto, 4.3L, Vin Code X[/size]