Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

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Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by fallvitals »

I need opinions here. I'm putting a set of piaa 525 dual beam auxiliary lights on my crew, mounted on the bumper. I planned to drive with the "fog" light on all the time when dark to get a bigger flood of light infront of me and hopefully some to the side to help to see animals, or possibly kids.

I started thinking how some people hate people who drive with fog lights on all the time, they generally talk about being blinded. If that is the case, they are poorly aimed, or possibly driving lights.

I personally think fog lights aren't limited to just fog, but an all around "safety" light, especially on our trucks .. The s10s have pretty crappy headlights. Now my fog light will be properally adjusted to not blind other motorists. And the driving light will only be used with my high beam of course, and no one should see that light anyways.

All my rambeling done, what's your opinions on people who drive with headlights and fog lights on all the time? (ones that are properly aimed).

Law here says I can have 2 fog lights, mounted between x and x height, no wording on when you can/can't use em. Only bad part is you can only have one driving light in this state... Being dual beam, and as long as I don't foret to turn em off when passing a car, I don't see any cop problems. Anyways, wanted to say that if it was relivent.
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by green02crew »

I use them. Why not? Afterall, isn't that why they are there to begin with?
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by fallvitals »

I use my stock fog all the time, it does little for me, But helps, lol. Just curious what others thought, Id hate to look like a jackass and not know it! lol.

Maybe I should disable my quad headlights too... That's 6 lights when using the driving light... But it would be hard to make it out at night... (if a cop setting there in the dark with a radar gun and 2 super brights ones on him) And again the bright ones go off when other cars are coming... lol. Might just have to disable that quad headlight to be as legal as possible...
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by HenryJ »

Personally I don't like them on all the time. They do create some increased glare. They are legal here too.

All this may be moot if the lights you are installing do not bear the DOT SAE approval markings. If they do not, they are for off highway use only and can not legally be used on the roads at any time.

I love the extra lighting offroad, but my combination uses improved low and highbeams. The stock fogs I only use as filler lighting, aftermarket fogs down low do a better job in the fog.

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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by fallvitals »

They aren't dot approved, so that makes em a "offroad light". Which I thought that would be the catch to getting a ticket if I ever got pulled over. While googling for info on the law, I came across this court case from California with very similer laws, cops said it was an offroad light, law was conflicting, the guy lost then applealex to a higher court and won. On that page is also a letter from the dot asking about auxiliary lights on vehicles, it's an older letter dated Nov 1995, but I'm assuming since it's still up for he world to see the info is still relivant, here's a exerpt from it:

"You wish to add two auxiliary lights to supplement your upper beams, and you ask whether these lights are "required to be DOT app " The answer is no; the DOT regulation on motor vehicle lighting (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 108 Lamps, Reflective Devices, and Associated Equipment does not prescribe requirements for lamps intended to supplement the headlamps, and thus the lamps of which you speak do not have to be certified as meeting Standard No. 108. As a matter of information, your use of the words "DOT approved" reflect; a common misconception. We have no authority to approve or disapprove lighting equipment..."

Link:
http://www.sidekickoffroad.com/offroadlites.htm

I might not run em much around the city cause of coppers. But when I'm on rural roads I'm definantly running 4... Stock s10 lights suck. Now dads 07 silverado is awesome, I wouldn't mess with his lighting if it was mine.
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by HenryJ »

That quote and link is "apples and oranges" and would not apply to your fog lights with low beams situation:
also states that auxiliary driving lamps are designed for supplementing the upper beam from headlamps and may not be lighted with the lower beam. To insure compliance he wired the auxiliary lights into the dimmer switch thereby limiting their use to only high beam operation.
The issue there is mostly dealing with California's light cover law.

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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by fallvitals »

True, but what I was referencing was letter from the DOT on Washington DC. The California case had some similarity to wv law. But of course is apple to oranges like you said, but the part where the cop calls them offroad lights ( not dot or sae approved ) when they are legal auxiliary lights is relivent with the dot letter, Then the DOT letter at the very bottom of that page, which I quoted above, says they are legal when supplimenting the headlights.

From what I'm getting from the dot letter, as long as your in compliance with state law, like in wv you can have 2 fogs, it doesn't matter if they are DOT or SAE approved. Making them legal.

Sound right, or do you have another point of view to this? I think I am understanding it, being dot - sae approved doesn't matter in this instance of use.
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by roadrunner »

Personally I don't like meeting people's vehicles at night that are so lit up they tend to blind other drivers. My CC's stock lighting is more than sufficient for all my on-road driving. I would suggest if your lights are insufficient perhaps they are not properly aimed? I do recall in the past seeing fog lights that had shades (looked like eyelids) to prevent excessive glare to oncoming traffic. Don't know if they are still available or not. As far as off-roading goes the sky's the limit. 8)
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by HenryJ »

fallvitals wrote:...says they are legal when supplimenting the headlights.
Upper beam , not lower beam. Lower beam would be subject to the requirements for light dispersion and intensity affecting on coming traffic.
... as long as your in compliance with state law, like in wv you can have 2 fogs, it doesn't matter if they are DOT or SAE approved. Making them legal.
I would agree with that, just not that they can be used in conjunction with the low beam headlamps "legally".

I can see the idea that having them come on with the low beams is a matter of convenience. That is not a bad idea. I think adding a switch to manually over ride that would keep you out of trouble. That way when you are checked you can show that the low beams do function with out them. I would also add a manual activation so that they could also be enabled with the high beams. I like the low filler light that they offer.

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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by Horsehammerr »

I'm sure Federal DOT says no other Illuminating lights can be on with Low Beam sitting on a motor vehicle. I'll try to find the Code #.
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by fallvitals »

Wow, I finay got the wizard to agree with me for once! :rock: :roflmao: lol.

The part about not having fogs illuminated with low beams would be a state law. Here some wv law on it:

§17C-15-25. Number of driving lamps required or permitted.

(b) Whenever a motor vehicle equipped with head lamps as herein required is also equipped with any auxiliary lamps or a spot lamp or any other lamp on the front thereof projecting a beam of intensity greater than three hundred candlepower, not more than a total of four of any such lamps on the front of a vehicle shall be lighted at any one time when upon a highway.

As for dimming for oncoming traffic or limitations the highest intinsity portion of a fog light at 25 feet as to be 4" lower then the centernof the light, the. There is also this section, I think I have it figured out, but I think it kinda contridicts the 4" at 25' rule for fogs.

§17C-15-20. Multiple-beam road-lighting equipment -- Requirements generally.
Except as hereinafter provided, the head lamps or the auxiliary driving lamp or the auxiliary passing lamp or combinations thereof on motor vehicles other than a motorcycle, motor-driven cycle or moped shall be so arranged that the driver may select at will between distributions of light projected to different elevations and such lamps may, in addition, be so arranged that such selection can be made automatically, subject to the following limitations:

(a) There shall be an uppermost distribution of light, or composite beam, so aimed and of such intensity as to reveal persons and vehicles at a distance of at least three hundred and fifty feet ahead for all conditions of loading.

(b) There shall be a lowermost distribution of light, or composite beam, so aimed and of sufficient intensity to reveal persons and vehicles at a distance of at least one hundred feet ahead; and on a straight level road under any condition of loading none of the high-intensity portion of the beam shall be directed to strike the eyes of an approaching driver.

(c) Every new motor vehicle, other than a motorcycle, motor- driven cycle or moped, registered in the state after January first, one thousand nine hundred fifty-two, which has multiple- beam road-lighting equipment shall be equipped with a beam indicator, which shall be lighted whenever the uppermost distribution of light from the head lamps is in use, and shall not otherwise be lighted. Said indicator shall be so designed and located that when lighted it will be readily visible without glare to the driver of the vehicle so equipped.

§17C-15-21. Same -- Use of; dimming lights upon approaching or overtaking.
(a) Whenever a motor vehicle is being operated on a roadway or shoulder adjacent thereto during the times specified in section two, the driver shall use a distribution of light, or composite beam, directed high enough and of sufficient intensity to reveal persons and vehicles at a safe distance in advance of the vehicle, subject to the following requirements and limitations:

(b) Whenever a driver of a vehicle approaches an oncoming vehicle within five hundred feet, such driver shall use a distribution of light, or composite beam, so aimed that the glaring rays are not projected into the eyes of the oncoming driver. The lowermost distribution of light, or composite beam specified in section twenty, subdivision (b) shall be deemed to avoid glare at all times, regardless of road contour and loading.

I didn't want to get in all the legal junk but it seems in wv I am just fine running fog lights all the time, given they are adjusted correctly. Like I said I think the fog light rules contridicts itself in aiming it seems in the text above it can be aimed a bit further then then 25' rule... Either way, it will be aimed to not hit other drivers.
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by fallvitals »

Horsehammerr wrote:I'm sure Federal DOT says no other Illuminating lights can be on with Low Beam sitting on a motor vehicle. I'll try to find the Code #.

I would he interested in seeing that. State law says you cannot hav more then 4 lights on once on a highway at any one time.
Edit- thinking it over, wouldn't that make fogs illegal in general since they are used with low beams?

The lights come with it's own switch, not 100% sure how it works but I'm sure it will completely shut them down. Which I wanted a switch to do that either way.
Last edited by fallvitals on Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by HenryJ »

That is all where the SAE designation fits in. That is what verifies it meets the specification for the candle power and light distribution. You do not have the tools to do that and prove that they meet the above requirements. Our stock fog lamp reflectors bear that mark and meet the specifications. Most aftermarket lamps will not have gone through the process to obtain those certifications. That adds cost and most people are not willing to pay for those costs.
I am sure there are some that have and do meet them. I have a feeling they are not cheap.

Add the switch to override and you will have no issues, IMO.

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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by fallvitals »

My lights are well aimed, I just think they are inferior stock equipment leaving the driver in a bad spot when any kind of weather hits. Much less on a clear night. IMHO. I'll just have to see what they look like once I get em installed before I decide how to run em.

But the way it looks legally, as long as the fogs are well aimed, I shouldn't have any issues in my state. And if a over reacting cop does ticket me using them, it should be an easy fight.

They have a LED in em that makes em glow bluish when they aren't on. Im worried about that being a cop attractor. I could care less about the LED, ill probably disable it. But as long as it isnt a blue flashing/warning light like a cop light, its legal. Atleast, thats the only illegal blue light I can find in state law.

Thanks for he info and point of views. Reed must be snowed in down in Kentucky and without power since he hasn't chimed in since he has a few auxiliary lights on his if im not mistaken, lol. :roflmao:

Still would like to hear any one elses opinions on WELL AIMED auxiliary lights.
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by HenryJ »

If you are unsatisfied with your stock headlamps , check out what I did for mine. The HIR highs are perfect and the bulb change for the lows made all the difference in the world.

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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by fallvitals »

That big of a change? Hmm, I still want the auxilary lights, especially the driving lights for those long late interstate trips. They will definantly reach out further then normal headlights... but ill definantly look into those HIR toshibas you used.

Now I just wonder of that GM techinical manual has a diagram for the headlight wiring and the colors somwhere.... (found it! Shouldn't be too hard... and I will just tape off the connectors to the quadheadlights relay instead of removing them incase I wish to hook it back up in the future)

I need to find the high beam (already found, using it for the quad) low, and DRL, not sure which 2 of the three ill need, but ill find out soon enough, lol.
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by HenryJ »

Just to clarify, read carefully ...the HIR bulbs are in my highbeams only. The low beam bulbs cost me nothing ;)

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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by fallvitals »

I'll have to search the forum then, I just looked at your mod list on your site. Sounds like a intresting low beam mod.
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by HenryJ »

fallvitals wrote:I'll have to search the forum then, I just looked at your mod list on your site. Sounds like a intresting low beam mod.
This will be a good place to start ;) Headlamp replacement bulbs

Information on modifying the bases

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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by fallvitals »

Wow, I have never read a thing about those before. I never knew such a light existed. If I wasn't tight for cash and hadn't just ordered that piaa 525 I would order those bulbs now. I still will even after I get the piaa lamps installed.

I bought a set of dual beam sealed silverstars for my old 97 s10 ironically a few months before I traded it, and they did very very little, so I never thought to search here for headlight info! lol. Wish they were half the price, id have the girlfriend get em for a valentines day gift for me, lol.
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by HenryJ »

The low beams are what get used most of the time. The bulb trimming trick gave me "HIR light" at no cost. That is a big bang for $0.
Add to that the HIR highs and that is plenty of light for daily driving.

When you get tired of the small light the fogs offer, look hard at the HID lights. There is just no comparison. Too bad you have already ordered or I would be trying to push you that direction. They are fairly expensive at $200 per pair. You get more than twice the light at less than one third the power consumption.

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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by fallvitals »

I could barely justify $300 for the piaa 525 dual beam I just bought, no way could I do $400 for only a single beam. Mainly I was just wanting a diving light, but found out piaa made a dual beam and thought, you can't beat that. I haven't read a bad thing about it, and the driving lights give ya 3 times the throw of stock headlights. But sure it's a awesome light. Not doughting that at all!

Buddy at work has a trans am he's does a lot of mods on, he mentioned HIDs last night, ill have to tell him about these HIRs.
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by HenryJ »

Wheew! $300 for the PIAA , that would give you a PItA for sure :lol:. You are going to hate to know that I paid $150 for the pair of 7" HID lights. They give you good workable light at 1/2 mile. Probably close to 10x the light of any halogen light at the given wattage.
I thought my HIR's were great until I struck the switch on the big HID offroad lights. Artificial sunlight :shock:
They made me a believer. Now that I have had HID offroad lights, I will not go back.
I have four now. They draw 140 watts maximum.

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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by fallvitals »

HIDs annoy me, I have never had any kind of complaint, personally, about other cars running 4 lights vs one guy with HIDs. If I bought a car that came with em stock, thats fine, but idk... I just don't like seeing them facing me, Id prefere not to subject other folks to the same. And I have never heard a complaint about PIAA stuff, maybe a little over priced, but never a complaint. Dad has some of their bulbs on his bike. He was tlkaing about getting some for his truck... but I dont think the HIR bulbs will work on his silverado, advance auto says he has H11? bulbs, IIRC.

Well still, if you paid $150 for a pair, they are either driving or fog lights right? Im doubting they are dual beam like the piaa I just bought. So, to get the same set up ill have it would cost the same, and I would have 4 lights, and not two mounted on my bumper.

Plus id prefere even less cop attention as possible even though we agree its legal in my state :roflmao: Cops don't seem to be as up to speed on certain subjects and quick to overeact...

I can't find a picture of your set up since the photo gallery is now gone? And I think those are older pictures on your signature link? IIRC you have the removable winch with two fogs on it. I dont recall where you have the other two?
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by renswic »

our law states that you can have up to 4 white lights running at once, aux. lights(yellow or amber) can me ran in tandem with said max of 4 lights, kinda cool yet useless, i only run with my fogs on when its foggy, rainy or snowing and at night(unless its bad enough that you can see anything)

now for me the real trick will be adding led driving lights(crappy walmart ones) for my DRLs(get a discount on my insurance for them) with out getting punked at night with my brights on(stock headlights, silver stars soonish, and 2 flood off road lights)
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by HenryJ »

renswic wrote:our law states that you can have up to 4 white lights running at once, aux. lights(yellow or amber) can me ran in tandem with said max of 4 lights
Interesting. Is an amber fog considered a white light or amber aux. light?

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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by Lewis »

Hey, my CC had the orange light that went acrost the bottom, and I picked up a new set from amazon that had the fog light built in. Well any way I wired them in and they are dim? on the casing of the bulb it said 12v. There is not an amp that boost the voltage? Is there? Any help would be great Thanks guys.
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by fallvitals »

I probably won't be much of a help. But I'm curious why you got a fog light set up when you didn't have it? Was the wiring in place for it? And I'm assuming you don't have fog light switch, how are you activating them?

I have no answers for you, ID assume the wiring is there you would just need a switch and your goodtogo, but apperantly that's not the case.... Some one with more knowledge should be around soon.
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by Lewis »

No I did not see any wireing. I ran my own wires. I installed a switch where the stock switch would have been. I ran a wire from the fuse box to the switch, and from the switch to the lights, and from the lights to a ground. Just like a aftermarket fog light setup would be. I thought it would have worked without a hitch. But maby its the bulbs?
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Re: Fog lights and "courtesy" opinions?

Post by border man »

An aftermarket fog kit would get it's power directly from the battery. They would be switched via a relay. You are probably running too big of a load through the switch. The switch should just be used to energize the relay.
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