How to do Brakes

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How to do Brakes

Post by Pauleo »

Some of you guys may laugh at me, but I think I might need help with doing the brakes on my crew. I did brakes a few times before. The last was on my `91 Cavalier. And it was probably `95 when I did them. I'm sure things have changed since then.

As some or all of you may know, I'm not very mechanically inclined. I just want to make sure that I do things right. I can do my own brakes for a bit over $100 and the dealer told me that they wanted about $550 to do them!!! So it's not that difficult a decision! I'll be doing them myself!

I just wanted to try to get a heads up from you guys. Are there going to be any special tools needed? Anything I need to be careful of?? Ect.

Thanks, guys!
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Post by barch97 »

I just replaced my front pads a few weeks ago. ($50 for ceramics at advance auto parts) It didn't require anything special. A socket wrench and a crecent wrench to loosen the caliper mounting bolts. C-clamp to compress the pistons, this was a little tricky as there are two pistons in each caliper but just leave the old inside pad in place and position the clamp toward the middle and you'll squeeze both in pretty evenly. It took me about 15 minutes per wheel including jacking up and removing the wheel.

In conclusion, I've got to assume that the dealer is doing more than just replacing the pads for that fee. Cutting or maybe replacing rotors? but even then, a replcament set of rotors can be had for about $100 on teh ebay.
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Post by Pauleo »

Yeah. They were replacing the pads & rotors for about $400. PLUS $141 for labor!!! Almost $550 total!!! :shock:
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Post by barch97 »

that's ridiculous. parts should cost less than 1/2 that and labor is less than an hour.

I should've gone into the dealer service/repair business. I might not have been as happy but at least I'd be rich :wink:
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Post by AZS10Crew »

If you feel like driving about 4 1/2 hours, I've got a lift and plenty of tools at work to help you out. 8)
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Post by jeff024 »

its as easy as barch stated
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Post by adrenalnjunky »

Should be no reason to replace your rotors unless they have been turned a few times before and are thinner than the minimum tolerance that should be stamped on the rotor itself.

Unless the rotors are cracked, or warped. then replace only the ones that are damaged.

Oh, and I dunno if all crews are disc brake rears, but usually drum brake shoes last much longer than the front brakes unless you normally carry weight on the rear end.
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Post by jeff024 »

there easy to replace yourself also paul
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Post by Pauleo »

barch97 wrote:that's ridiculous. parts should cost less than 1/2 that and labor is less than an hour.

I should've gone into the dealer service/repair business. I might not have been as happy but at least I'd be rich :wink:
Hey! Maybe you & I can go into business together! I'd like some of that money that they BLEED outta you too!! :lol:

I can't wait to see what they are charging my warranty company for THOSE repairs. I definately made a wise investment when I bought that! They definately lost their arse on this deal! (the warranty company that is)
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Post by Pauleo »

AZS10Crew wrote:If you feel like driving about 4 1/2 hours, I've got a lift and plenty of tools at work to help you out. 8)
Mark, you're a saint! If you were just a bit closer, I would take you up on that offer! :lol: Thanks.
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Post by Pauleo »

So how about those rotors? Are changing them pretty easy also? I thought I remembered having to repack the hubs and bearings with grease on my old Cavalier. Again, that was about 10 or 12 years ago. My memory just ain't that good! I remember cleaning them really well with brake cleaner and taking care not to touch them with my bare hands as to not get any body oils on them. Any of this sound familiar???
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Post by barch97 »

I didn't pay too much attention to my rotors. They looked pretty smooth and straight visually and the pads, while obviously worn, were still pretty beefy and evenly worn. I believe however that the rotors just slide on over the wheel lugs.

As for bearings, I'm not sure but I think the hubs are sealed. So, there's no way to clean and repack them. Just wait for them to fail and replace the whole hub.
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Post by Pauleo »

One more thing. Am I going to need to bleed the brakes? If so, where are the release valves? I've done this before but I was always the guy inside pumping the pedal.
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Post by HenryJ »

Pauleo wrote:One more thing. Am I going to need to bleed the brakes?
Only when you take off a line or replace a caliper, do you need to bleed the air out of the system.

I would suggest one more thing.
When you replace any pads, replace as much of the fluid as you can. Use that "Turkey baster" to suck as much fluid out of the master cylinder as you can. Then compress the calipers in preparation for installation of the new pads and again suck out as much fluid as you can, replacing it with fresh DOT-3 fluid.

Brake fluid is hygroscopic. It seeks out and absorbs moisture. Air has moisture. The fluids hydraulic properties and boiling point are changed with the addition of the water.
Brake fluid needs to be changed periodically to maintain the system , both in preventing corrosion within, as well as performance. You may even notice the firmness return to the feel of your brakes after fluid replacement.

Don't worry about changing all the fluid unless it is really bad. Just change as much as you can when doing a brake job.

Oh, and don't put the baster back in the kitchen when you're done. Buy a new one :roll:

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Post by malkavian »

and for packing bearings with grease just put you some wheel bearing grease in a zip lok bag drop in your bearing and squeeze it around till you have the grease squeezed all in to the rollars of the bearing. Or you can buy a bearing packer tool at auto zone or what not for about 15 dollars I think. Dont know for sure about the price never have bought one. I always use the bag method.
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Post by HenryJ »

malkavian wrote:and for packing bearings with grease...
Good tip for other vehicles. Ours use sealed bearings. No packing for ours.

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Post by gocntry »

HenryJ wrote:Brake fluid is hygroscopic. It seeks out and absorbs moisture. Air has moisture. The fluids hydraulic properties and boiling point are changed with the addition of the water.
Brake fluid needs to be changed periodically to maintain the system , both in preventing corrosion within, as well as performance. You may even notice the firmness return to the feel of your brakes after fluid replacement.
How About If You Add Some Synthetic Brake Fluid ?? Synthetic Brake Fluid Would This Help With The Moisture Absorbing Or Do You End Up Paying More Money For A Product That Does The Same Thing As Good Ol Dot 3 Fluid??
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Post by HenryJ »

Looks , Ok if it is economically feasible and compatible with the OEM supplied fluid.

Brake fluid needs to be hygroscopic. This is what keeps the moisture from concentrating and creating corrosion / rust problems.

It like every other fluid has a replacement schedule. Few follow through and replace it regularly, if at all.

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Post by Pauleo »

ALL very good info! Just what I was looking for! Thanks a million. I'll be doing the brakes tomorrow.

I am SO VERY thankful for this site!

Thanks again!
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Post by malkavian »

HenryJ wrote:
malkavian wrote:and for packing bearings with grease...
Good tip for other vehicles. Ours use sealed bearings. No packing for ours.
your kidding.. I did not know this. Thats cool I not as messy. LOL I guess I would have figured that one out when I have to do my brakes.. Thanks for the info HJ
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Post by Pauleo »

HenryJ wrote:Use that "Turkey baster" to suck as much fluid out of the master cylinder as you can... Brake fluid is hygroscopic. It seeks out and absorbs moisture... Oh, and don't put the baster back in the kitchen when you're done. Buy a new one :roll:
Oh yeah! I'd definately go buy a new one! My wife's turkeys are dry enough as it is! :!: :wink:
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Post by killian96ss »

gocntry wrote:How About If You Add Some Synthetic Brake Fluid ?? Synthetic Brake Fluid Would This Help With The Moisture Absorbing Or Do You End Up Paying More Money For A Product That Does The Same Thing As Good Ol Dot 3 Fluid??
This is very good brake fluid and I have used it in all my vehicles. It has much lower water absorbtion than standard DOT 3 brake fluid and a much higher boiling point. This stuff is very comparable to some of the best racing fluids out there. If you do use this fluid make sure you flush the entire system. When this stuff mixes with the stock GM fluid it looks similar to oil and water mixed together. I use a pressurized bleeder from Motive Products to bleed my brakes. I use about 15-20 psi while bleeding, and you don't need a second person to help. :wink:

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Post by Pauleo »

I don't know where I would be without you guys holding my hand! :lol: I did the brakes today. VERY easy job. My rotors were pretty screwed up. The back sides had tons of pits in them and the pads were worn unevenly in the back sides also. Is this cause for concern? Shouldn't they wear evenly?
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Post by killian96ss »

It sounds like your front caliper slide pins are not lubed enough causing them to apply pressure to one pad more than the other. The caliper needs to be able to slide from side to side to prevent a binding or sticking condition which will cause the pads to wear unevenly. The rear brakes work the same way so make sure they are able to move also. Most auto parts stores carry a specific high temp synthetic grease that's made specifically for the caliper slide pins. Don't use regular grease as it will burn up and dry out due to the extreme temps created by the braking process. Every time I change the oil I also relube the brake pins and all the suspension fittings. :wink: I currently have 64k miles and my front brakes still have 30% left, and all my front suspension parts are almost as tight as new. :D

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Post by Pauleo »

killian96ss wrote:It sounds like your front caliper slide pins are not lubed enough...
Thanks, Steve. Yeah, those pins didn't have much grease on them to speak of. That HAD to have been the problem. I'll have to get some ASAP.
killian96ss wrote:Every time I change the oil I also relube the brake pins and all the suspension fittings. :wink: I currently have 64k miles and my front brakes still have 30% left, and all my front suspension parts are almost as tight as new. :D
That's probably the problem with my front end. I take the truck to a drive oil change place & they probably don't grease all 11 fittings. I need to get a grease gun & do it myself, I guess.
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Post by killian96ss »

Pauleo wrote:That's probably the problem with my front end. I take the truck to a drive oil change place & they probably don't grease all 11 fittings. I need to get a grease gun & do it myself, I guess.
Changing the oil and greasing the fittings really isn't all that bad on the CC. I can do both in about 20 minutes without even having to put the truck on ramps. If you get a grease gun, I would get one of the larger ones with a flexible hose and a 90* adapter. I use Mobil 1 synthetic grease which has worked out very well, and provides much better protection that standard grease for suspension parts. Alot of people don't realize that the slide pins need to be greased every so often to prevent then from seizing which can cause major damage. :shock:

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Post by F9K9 »

killian96ss wrote:............ Alot of people don't realize that the slide pins need to be greased every so often to prevent then from seizing which can cause major damage. :shock:

Steve
Can you explain how your lubricate the slide pins? If you dump grease into the bushing, a lot will be pushed out. Are you using the mobil 1 for the pins, as well?
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Post by HenryJ »

I would suggest NOT using chassis lubricant on the slide pins. You need to use high temperature silicone brake lubricant on the brake caliper pin bolts and retainers.
Chassis grease will liquefy too readily in the high temperature environment.

As long as the seals remain intact the lubricant should last as long as the caliper. Check them for freedom of movement during a brake job. If resistance is felt clean them with denatured alcohol and relubricate with high temperature silicone brake lubricant.
If there is any wear on the hardware , it can be replaced. The pin kits usually come with lubricant.

As with any lubricant, no one does it all. Each is designed for a specific use. I would suggest that there is usually a reason for this. Grease around the brakes is not a good thing. Use the correct lubricant sparingly.

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Post by killian96ss »

f9k9 wrote:Can you explain how your lubricate the slide pins? If you dump grease into the bushing, a lot will be pushed out. Are you using the mobil 1 for the pins, as well?
The slide pins need to be removed and cleaned with brake cleaner. You should also clean the holes in the calipers where the slide pins are inserted. Now that everything is clean, you would then apply a special high temp synthetic caliper grease to the slide pin and reinsert into the caliper. It is ok for some of the grease to be forced back out, because this is a good sign that you applied enough. :wink: Make sure you use the special caliper grease and NOT regular or synthetic grease. I only use the Mobil 1 synthetic for the suspension fittings. :D

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Post by F9K9 »

Most of the brake cleaners I have used warns agains using on plastic or rubber. Are they going to be safe to use on the bushings?

I like this maintainance procedure you are using and think it is an excellent idea. Sorry if, I am asking too many questions. I am just having a difficult time picturing cleaning the bushings while the caliber is mounted.
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Post by killian96ss »

HenryJ wrote:As long as the seals remain intact the lubricant should last as long as the caliper. Check them for freedom of movement during a brake job.
I used to believe this, but I have found that even the high temp caliper grease can dry up and cause binding issues in a short amount of time. :shock: Like you said it is a good idea to check for movement during brake jobs, and I take it one step farther and check or lubricate them every time I do an oil change. :wink: This may be overkill, but I have seen frozen slide pins on other GM vehicles that lead to disastrous consequences. :shock: Another problem with stock GM slide pins is that they are made of steel which of course can rust with a small amount of moisture and also cause seizing. I had some stainless steel slide pins specially made for all 4 calipers on my SS, and they're holding up very well to some of the high temps I have put them through. :D


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Post by killian96ss »

f9k9 wrote:Most of the brake cleaners I have used warns agains using on plastic or rubber. Are they going to be safe to use on the bushings?
I have never had a problem with brake cleaner ruining the rubber seals, but if you want to be safe then clean them with something else like rubbing alcohol. :)
f9k9 wrote:I like this maintainance procedure you are using and think it is an excellent idea. Sorry if, I am asking too many questions. I am just having a difficult time picturing cleaning the bushings while the caliber is mounted.
I have learned alot on this site from asking ?'s, so I don't think you can ask too many. :D You will have to partially remove the caliper in order to properly clean the slide pins and their bores. :wink:

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Post by F9K9 »

killian96ss wrote:............ You will have to partially remove the caliper in order to properly clean the slide pins and their bores. :wink:

Steve
Darn :lol:

Was hoping I could just pull one pin at a time and not "partially remove" the calibers.

You have got to do a video of the oil change/lube routine w/o ramps :lol:

Reminds me of my VW type 1 oil change/valve adjustement routine I did at 1,000 mile intervals :D

If memory serves me correctly it was around 20 min but, may have been 30. I do remember the time allowed in shop manuals to pull a motor was around .5 hours :D
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Post by killian96ss »

f9k9 wrote:You have got to do a video of the oil change/lube routine w/o ramps :lol:
It's tight, but I use my low pro Bone creeper and a long flexible grease hose, and I can almost slide right under my truck when it's sitting on all 4. :D I have ramps, but when I use them I feel like I'm going to drive right over them. :lol: They need a bigger lip to prevent rollover.

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Post by F9K9 »

I want to thank Killian for getting me off my butt to check my caliber pins. :D

I went ahead and lubed my caliber pins and after the wife's Cavalier's pins, I was downright impressed. No special socket and they appeared to be made of SS. With my truck's history in a limbo for over 2 yrs, I feared the worse.

A thumbs up maintenence item :thumb:
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Post by killian96ss »

Lubing the caliper slide pins is very easy, but often over looked even when doing a brake job. If you do this regularly your brakes will last alot longer and should appear to work more smoothly. Sometimes it's the simplest things that are overlooked that can make a big difference in performance and longevity and preventing future problems from arising. :wink:
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Post by Blaze One »

sorry for brining up this old topic , but where are these caliper slide pins you speak of ?
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Post by rick »

Remember when you push the caliber pistons back to open the bleeder screw as not to push and contaminates back through the system. The antilock system valve's and pump do not like contaminants. :thumb:
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Post by gocntry »

Blaze One wrote:sorry for brining up this old topic , but where are these caliper slide pins you speak of ?
Yeah I Would Like To Know Too.... I Have The Rear Wheel Off Right Now And Was Going To Lube The Slide Pins But What Are They? Are You Talking About The Short Bolts That Hold The Caliper On?

Sorry For Being A Little Ignorant On This Subject But I'm Confused :? :? :D
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Post by killian96ss »

gocntry wrote:
Blaze One wrote:sorry for brining up this old topic , but where are these caliper slide pins you speak of ?
Yeah I Would Like To Know Too.... I Have The Rear Wheel Off Right Now And Was Going To Lube The Slide Pins But What Are They? Are You Talking About The Short Bolts That Hold The Caliper On?

Sorry For Being A Little Ignorant On This Subject But I'm Confused :? :? :D
This is what they look like. :wink:

Front Caliper Slide Pins
Image
Rear Caliper Slide Pins
Image

Front Caliper Guide Pin Mounting Bolts 85 ft. lbs.
Rear Caliper Guide Pin Bolts 23 ft. lbs.

I believe these are the correct torque specs, however my kids somehow misplaced my FSM, so I got these specs from Alldata's web site. :roll: If someone has access to their FSM can you please double check these specs for me? :pray:

Steve
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Post by Blaze One »

well , i finished replaceing my front brake pads , I went with a set of Monroe Premiums Ceramic . Everything was lubed and they work much better than my last set . I didn't have a tourqe wrench , so i just tighten them .

Thanks.
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Post by BobbleSmitty »

rick wrote:Remember when you push the caliper pistons back to open the bleeder screw as not to push and contaminates back through the system. The antilock system valve's and pump do not like contaminants. :thumb:
Where is this bleeder screw? And when you open the bleeder screw when compressing the caliper's pistons do you lose alot of brake fluid?
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Post by F9K9 »

BobbleSmitty wrote:
rick wrote:Remember when you push the caliper pistons back to open the bleeder screw as not to push and contaminates back through the system. The antilock system valve's and pump do not like contaminants. :thumb:
Where is this bleeder screw? And when you open the bleeder screw when compressing the caliper's pistons do you lose alot of brake fluid?
While Rick's suggestion may be good, I have never had to perform the procedure on any disc brake pad changes that I have done. Remove some brake fluid from the reservoir, leave the cap off and spread the pads with a C-clamp or a specialty tool. When finished pump the brakes up and replace fluid with new.

The procedure should take under an hour for the fronts. Research it first and have new brake fluid, synthetic caliber grease, turkey baster and the normal tools on hand.
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killian96ss
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Post by killian96ss »

BobbleSmitty wrote:
rick wrote:Remember when you push the caliper pistons back to open the bleeder screw as not to push and contaminates back through the system. The antilock system valve's and pump do not like contaminants. :thumb:
Where is this bleeder screw? And when you open the bleeder screw when compressing the caliper's pistons do you lose alot of brake fluid?
The bleeder screw is right next to the brake hose on the caliper (about the same size as a zerk fitting).

This is the same screw you open to flush the system and bleed the air out.

You will lose a little bit of fluid when you compress the caliper, but it's not very much.

After you compress each caliper just top off the fluid in the reservoir to make sure it doesn't run dry.

If the reservoir runs dry and sucks air in, you will have to "bench bleed" the master cylinder which isn't hard, but it's not fun either since you have to disconnect the lines and purge the air.

Steve
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Post by HenryJ »

The idea behind this method: Brake fluid does not circulate. The fluid at the wheels gets heated and compressed. With time it degrades. The calipers move in and out. Contaminates can be introduced at this point. Even things as simple as iron and rubber from normal wear.
By compressing the calipers without the bleed screw open , this "bad" fluid is forced back to the master cylinder.
This was not such a big deal on older vehicles. With the introduction of antilock braking systems, there is room for concern. Passages and solenoids in the system are easily plugged or damaged by contaminants.

Remove as much fluid from the master cylinder as possible. A suction gun or even Turkey Baster will work. Refill with fresh fluid. Open the bleed screw to compress the calipers. Follow the brake job by bleeding the brakes until the fluid is clear. Most think of this as removing the air from the system. That is one reason. The more important one is to change all the fluid.

Brake fluid is hygroscopic. This means it has an affinity for water. Air has water. That is why they say add fluid from a sealed container. One opened and sitting on the shelf for a long time is full of water and useless. Exposed to air it absorbs water. Water contaminated brake fluid lowers the boiling point and the hydraulic properties. Water compresses more. This is why you get the spongy feel in the pedal and brake fade when hot.

The affinity for water is a good thing. This keeps the water in suspension. If it did not the water would pool and oxidation (rust) would occur damaging the cylinders (master, wheel , caliper).
Dot 3 has a higher affinity than Dot 4. Dot 4 has better hydraulic properties. If you live in a moist or humid climate stick with DOT 3. If your climate is dry and sees lots of heat DOT 4 may serve better.

DOT 5 is silicone and not compatible with most systems. It will not work in ours. The military , racing and aircraft use it for safety issues and less toxicity. It is not hygroscopic. water will pool and contaminate the system.

Brake fluid can be pretty nasty stuff. Ever research what it is made of? It can be corrosive to paints , chrome, and violently reactive with oxidizers.

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Post by BobbleSmitty »

I did my brakes today. I appreciate all of the info on how to do it correctly! I'm glad that the squeeling noise is gone!! The old brakes were in pretty bad shape.
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Post by rlrnr53 »

Aother reason to open the bleeders when pushing the piston into the caliper is that you may push trash into the valves of the ABS module. I was told years ago by a GM service manager that I trust not to push the fluid back into the master cylinder. Of course I forgot this advice, and it ended up costin me over $750.00 to have a new module installed. The price for the module was $700.00, and over $50.00 labor, this was in about 1996. Needless to say, I now open the bleeders when I do a brake job.
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Re: How to do Brakes

Post by HenryJ »

Dusting off a decade old thread...

When did you last change your Brake Fluid? Brake fluid is hygroscopic. It has an affinity for water. It gets this water from the air. Water has poor properties for use in a brake system. It compresses giving that spongy pedal feel, and when heated it it boils at a much lower temperature than brake fluid. This leads to brake fade. Degradation of the internal parts is also a problem. Wet climates are harder on brake fluid than dry, even then it should probably be changed every couple years or so. Routine maintenance on the Vega after 16 years. Flushed the fluid in the Vega and HenryJ. Both REALLY needed it
:)
How long has it been since you changed your brake fluid?

A wrench that fits the bleed screw, a two foot piece of tubing to fit the bleed screw and a gallon jug with a hole in the lid for the tubing. Maybe a rag for the "oops" and someone to sit in the drivers seat and push the pedal. I use an old turkey baster to suck out as much of the old stuff from the master cylinder as possible. Then refill with fresh clean brake fluid. Start at the farthest and work to the closest. Not too hard to do :)

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Post by _STUCKY »

:thumb:

I changed mine during the axle swap. Bunch of nasty came out.
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Re: How to do Brakes

Post by Built2Bend »

I've never changed mine. I should really do that. I'm sure no ones done it before me.

There's ready air in my system. I need to fix that still.
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Re: How to do Brakes

Post by Torskdoc »

I Change Brake Fluid on mine every time I change shoes, whether it's both axles or one axle. 3 ft of clear tubing, a gallon jug (clear is best or translucent) and 2 big bottles of DOT 3.

change the brake shoes, rotors, drums, etc. as normal. Bleed the caliper as needed to re-seat the new shoes/pads
Pump them up until you get a hard pedal.

work from brake furthest from Master Cylinder to closest. Right Rear, Left Rear, Right Front, Left Front.

Attach the gallon jug with 2" of brake fluid in it and the hose end "underwater" so it doesn't suck air back when pedal is released.

Turkey baster all old fluid from Master cylinder reservoir. Add new fluid to top.

Open bleed screw 1 turn.

Push BRAKE pedal completely to bottom and count to 5. Release, and repeat until you get NO BUBBLES and fluid coming from hose is clear. You may have to refill reservoir on back brakes as you have to fill all of the lines to the back also.

Shut bleed screw. remove hose and install cap on bleeder.

Repeat procedure for the rest of the 3 wheels. Fill reservoir as needed for each wheel when starting a wheel and during bleed. Do NOT allow the level to get low enough to admit air to the system or you have to start all over.

Top off reservoir to correct level and install cap tightly! Pump up pedal with engine off. Repeat with engine on. Trucks WITHOUT ABS should have pedal level approx the same. Trucks WITH ABS will have pedal level approx the same with engine on level dropping lower slowly after hitting the engine off level. This is the ABS System working. The pedal will be spongy feeling at this lower level. It's perfectly normal as the ABS system is cycling at a low rate.

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