A little diff help! long

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A little diff help! long

Post by s10 again »

Ok guys I'm so glad this forum is up and running again thanks HJ and all others for your work and dedication.

So here is what happened.(don't you know it is going to be good with that opening) About a month ago we had a decent snow storm up here in the TN mountains. My parent own rental properties and I help the with up keep and maintenance. One of our properties came empty and I needed to make sure the water and heat had been left on to protect pipes and such from freezing. The S10 was doing fine around our place with 5-6 inches of snow however the house we were going to was at a higher elevation and had received 14-15 inches of this wonderful white stuff and the road to it only plowed by locals and no salt.

We drove the road part fine even though 4" of snow covered it. However the fairly long up hill driveway was a no go. So I pushed the the 4lo button and and after a couple of tries go up the drive far enough to be out of the road. We walked from there to take care of everything. Once back I backed up and my drivers front wheel slid over into a ditch. So I was a little stuck and tried rocking it gently but no go. Now to make things more interesting this is a narrow road with a 6ft drop off into a creek right behind me so just going power nuts would likely result in very bad things. So I leave it in 4lo for control and more low rpm toque. I start a more aggressive rocking and start cutting the wheel a bit while in reverse to hunt for traction and finely the little 10 is free.

However not without cost. Once on the clear road I can feel a funky vibe and I know things aren't right. At that point I'm thinking t-case mount or u-joint damaged from lo range torque. It is not bad enough to fight with in the snow so I figure I'll look at it once the weather clears. The next week is wet and nasty and we were only driving at low speeds around town and it only had the vibe at speeds over 50 so I let it slide still hoping for better weather.

Then snow started again and I had to go to parents house 30 miles away. Half the trip is through a national forest the speed limit is 45 so I felt safe enough about the trip and the vibe was just there but not bad. Made most of the trip ok till we get in my parents gated community. The road is paved and all mountain parents live on the first or second highest peak on the mountain at 4000ft. In a couple of places springs come up through the pavement and freeze. One is in a up hill straight section another is in a not too steep switch back. I was in 4HI and crossing part of the frozen spring again with the drives side. The front had no problem but the rear spun a second and then caught violently even though I was doing less than 5mph. Everything felt ok till the trip home vibes started at 40 mph and were harsh. I'm starting to think from the feel of them it was the t-case mount that is what it felt like because it was worst under throttle or up hills. Once back closer to home at the grocery store I start hearing a clank. I have my wife run it through the gears while I look under. My drive shaft has 1/4 turn of play before it finds something to grab. :shock: So is this my gears? Could it be I cursed myself when talking about the g-80 in another post a while back saying I had never had a problem with one?

I want to rip the cover off and look but in the middle of all this I slipped on ice and shattered my right wrist and had to have surgery on it. To top it of I'm right handed of coarse.

So what you guys think will be found once the cover comes off. 1. gears are toast 2. pin got pulled on grenade-loc. 3. everything in there is wasted.

Sorry for long post just wanted to give background on the events leading up to problem.


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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by HenryJ »

Pulling the cover will tell the tale.

I had some significant wear on the center pin retaining bolt. That will usually lock things up completely. Check for a loose pinion. I'm sure you saw what happened to mine. There are all sorts of things that could be wrong. Let us know what you find.

What is your plan? Time for the upgrade?

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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by roadrunner »

I've seen this many times in front and rear differentials. Most likely you'll find broken spider gears or gears with teeth missing. Don't drive it!!! Those broken pieces will migrate and destroy the ring and pinion if not damaged already. The spinning then sudden traction will do this type damage very easily. Sorry to hear of your misfortune both vehicular and physical. Good luck to you.
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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by s10 again »

Plan Plan WE HAVE NO STINKING PLAN!!!! :lol:


Thanks guys!

I have a few trains of thought but no plans.

1. If it only the g-lock find a good deal on a used f body torsen zexel then find a shop to install. I would do it myself but not one handed. Plus I would want someone knowledgeable about gear set up to check it out and adjust if necessary. Anyone running one of these in a cc and wheeling it please chime in I would love to hear how well they do!!!

2. If all is lost once cover comes off. Find and take to good shop for rebuild. Including what parts other than stock gearing I don't know. Wife will be driving this thing in snow and ice from time to time so a real locker is out I think so she doesn't :roflmao: :shock: all over the road. I don't want another g-lock or a clutch type lsd. I think I like the idea of the clutchless lsd but a new ones look $$$.

3. Do the zr2 swap maybe get son in law to help. He has little mechanical knowledge but is eager to learn. I just talked him through replacing a rear wheel bearing and axle shaft on their 96 blazer so he is capable to learn. However that gives me another G-loc and from what I have read they don't like ice. Would the zr2 one be much tougher than the one I have now. If I go this route is there anyone that has done this already to help with a few swap questions.

4. I'm working on a plan to get a used Jeep JK unlimited Rubi. I could slap in a stock JY rear and trade. Then get older F/S ext. cab work truck. Problem I like my little 10. :cry:

5. might get JK and keep the CC but leave it mostly stock. If I do this I'll want the toughest fix.

It really sucks not being able to tear into it right now. Besides being busted up today is the best day we have had since we broke the truck. I'm going to get kids help clean out the garage so we can back her in and check it out soon. I'm hoping for something stupid but I doubt it. I also had the service engine light come one and have yet to have codes pulled.

On the plus side I got a overhead console complete with home link and fuel computer off ebay before I killed the diff. I installed it with stock computer for now till I get the right wiring harness. The Homelink worked great to get me through the gate at parents place(to blow out the rear end) after programing it.


roadrunner , Thanks for the advice and the luck Because I need it. I was a little ahead of you and have not driven the truck after finding out the problem was in the diff.


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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by HenryJ »

s10 again wrote:1. If it only the g-lock find a good deal on a used f body torsen zexel then find a shop to install.
2. If all is lost once cover comes off. Find and take to good shop for rebuild. Wife will be driving this thing in snow and ice from time to time so a real locker is out ...
If you are worried about performance on ice, an open differential is the safest way to go. Next would be the Eaton G80. It will unlock at higher speeds to help keep it from swapping ends. Other limited slip and locking differentials will not be so kind on a slick surface.
3. Do the zr2 swap ... is there anyone that has done this already to help with a few swap questions.
You are kidding, right? ZR2 rear axle upgrade

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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by s10 again »

Thanks for the link HJ.

I guess I'm in the same boat that you were in. I won't till I get into the cover how bad things are. I remember asking about the zr2 rear in another thread with you and others. But Did not know you have done this already yourself. But I wasn't thinking my diff was going out at the time. This may be what I do. we have a bit before tax money is here so I have time to plan my course of action. I do have a few ? that came up while researching this swap.

One got touched on in the tread you linked to. The other guy had a problem with the u-joint and yoke. I read on s10forum I think that zr2 reg cab and ext cabs have a different yoke and something about a shield. If so which one will I need for a true bolt in? Also It look like year of donor might come into play.

Someone else mentioned that the zr2 has I think a longer snout and might require a shorter drive shaft. Yours bolted right up but you also have a lift so that longer snout might have helped you or gone unnoticed. If this is true could I run in to a problem there being stock?

If I can get a rear complete with brakes will I still need to change the brake lines like you did?

With stock zr5 rims and tires will this swap push the tires out from under the flairs?

Will it drive ok for a while till I can get front spacers?


Thank you again HJ!!!
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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by s10 again »

I think this is were the problem is.

ebay link


The yoke and front of this zr2 rear is different than the one in your pics.

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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by HenryJ »

s10 again wrote: I'm in the same boat that you were in... Did not know you have done this already yourself.
Just finished my swap last night. I did not fully make the decision until that day.
I read on s10forum I think that zr2 reg cab and ext cabs have a different yoke and something about a shield.
That is a vibration dampener behind the yoke. I can not say for sure if it will be different or not. NAPA lists only one size U-joint available for all the S-series, ZR2 included. The same cross fits Chevy clear back to 1961. That doesn't mean Murphy does not live in your swap. No biggie though and adapter joint is under $20 and any good parts store will have one. I was prepared to do that too.
a longer snout and might require a shorter drive shaft. Yours bolted right up but you also have a lift so that longer snout might have helped you or gone unnoticed. If this is true could I run in to a problem there being stock?
I do not have a suspension lift other than springs and they did not raise it beyond the stock operating range. The driveshafts are the same length ZR2 or not for a 4x4. I have not found evidence of a difference. I think you will be fine there. Any small differences will be absorbed by the slip joint.
If I can get a rear complete with brakes will I still need to change the brake lines like you did?
No. You need to use the lines that come with it. I tried to reuse mine so I would have less to bleed and know the system was not contaminated. My calipers were in much better shape too.
With stock zr5 rims and tires will this swap push the tires out from under the flairs?
I don't think so. It should push them out where they just look right and not need spacers. You will end up with the rear axle 1.9" wider than the front. With our Isuzu fender bulge that just looks right. Many add spacers to the rear to get it to look right. My rear spacers were 3". That had the rear 1.4" wider than the front , which had 1.25" spacers.
Will it drive ok for a while till I can get front spacers?
Yes. You won't need spacers for the front. It should be perfect as is. I need spacers on the rear to match the spacers on the front now. I may remove the front ones to better match things up until then. I sort of need them to clear my 33s though.
s10 again wrote:The yoke and front of this zr2 rear is different than the one in your pics.
Yup. Measure the cross. It may work and then it may not. I am not sure that was fully resolved in the earlier posts.
You do need the panard rod bracket that is missing from that axle. It holds that brake line. I would not pay that price without it included. You will have no way to secure that brake line.

I would try to find one from a 2001 or newer. Earlier models might have had differences that could add difficulty. Thus far I have just seen the axles from trucks. I don't know what a BlaZer2 might have to offer.

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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by s10 again »

Hj you are a wealth of info!

Like I mentioned earlier I have to wait for tax money to get in before I can do anything. But this looks promising. Hopefully one will pop up that looks like the one you have. Thanks for the heads up about needing that panhard bracket I will look for that from now on!!!


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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by HenryJ »

You need to check the RPO code list and see what ratio you have. I am fairly sure it is the 3.73 if you have the G80.
Keep in mind that I have all the parts from my differential too. Other than needing a new shim, it is in good shape. I'll make you a heck of a deal on what you need.

I like the G80 and have had good luck with them. I think they are an excellent way to go for a casual offroader and daily driver. Treated right and serviced properly, they are tops in my book.

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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by s10 again »

I might be jumping the gun the g80 might be fine and something else at fault.Plus I have no idea what it had been put through before getting the truck. I have had a few of them before including my last s10 a 99 Extreme 4.3 auto. I beat the crap out of it and never had a problem.

I have read though that the g80 does not like ice. It sounds like what I did. From reading if you suddenly lose traction on one wheel but the other has very good traction and you are already moving it shock loads the G80 and it breaks. Kinda like Roadrunner said.

That is why I was looking at the Torsen Zexel. Many say that as long as they aren't preloaded they are great for snow and ice. But I have never owned one so don't truly know. They are they use in Hummers.

Thanks for the offer on the G80 and I will keep it in mind. But I am kinda leaning towards a zr2 swap. Is the g80 a heaver unit in those? My step father has an 03 z71 and I think the g80 is fine after 200k+. Gives me hope since the zr2 should have the same center section.

Oh and I think when I got the truck I decoded and it came out 373 gears but will double check.

Chris.
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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by s10 again »

Yep gt4 and next to it G80.

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Re: A little diff help! long

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s10 again wrote:... I am kinda leaning towards a zr2 swap. Is the g80 a heaver unit in those?
I don't know about heavier, but it is bigger for sure. The axle shafts larger, more splines larger side gears and spiders. the flyweight mechanism looks to be very similar.
The whole housing center section is substantially beefier. All the internals bigger too. I did feel it was a good way to go.

No differential likes shock loading. The forward and reverse rocking is the hardest on everything. The gears are just not designed to take a load in reverse.
It is best to ease into it and them apply the throttle. Once locked the load is more evenly distributed.

I have not seen a G80 that blew up first hand. I don't know what the weak link might be. I suspect that the worm drive and associated linkage might be the issue. Most just complain the it doesn't engage when they want it. That could be due to the incorrect fluid reacting with the metallic in the clutches, or just a lack of maintenance gumming up the works.

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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by s10 again »

Good to know that the zr2 rear does have a beefer G80. From my reading the ones that go boom are from the spiders. For the record I HATE SPIDERS!!! :lol: I was thinking afterwards that rocking it in low range might have been hard on the diff. But if it were to suddenly pop out the ditch I didn't want to end up over the drop and in the creek right behind me. But at the same time the wheels had little traction and was careful not to slam it back and forth. The foward slip uphill on ice was rough for sure Way more than expected given the very low speed. The stream of ice was only about 2ft wide so there was not a lot of time before the diff locked. Should it Just suddenly snatch? If so why did they put clutches in there? :?:

But the problem may not have started there. Wife had been driving it and says now that it had a little vibe and maybe some drag the week before off and on. Half of my parents driveway is paved and the other half graveled and it is a little steep. I could always feel the locker kick in while going up. My wife works for my mother so she drives up there daily. Maybe it was the G80 not engaging and disengaging properly even then. Thinking about it I remember before then feeling a drag after using 4x4 to get out of our muddy back yard. It went away in a couple of miles leaving me to think the front end just took a bit to disengage. So maybe things were weak before the snow storm and that just finished it off.

Like I said stepfathers z71 gives me hope. It travels those roads and driveway all the time. It has slid off the mountain twice both times with a trailer once loaded JD crawler with blade(think dozer). Was t-boned in the bed after SF ran stop sign. 200k plus on the clock and the diff oil never touched. A matter of fact the engine oil rarely gets changed and the trans fluid never changed. Only real repair a water pump only problem up to date is the push button 4x4 has to be beat on to work.

Maybe I get a zr2 rear and keep taking care of it my CC would last forever. Not how my luck works but I can be hopeful. :lol:


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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by killian96ss »

I have a Detroit Tru-Trac in my 88 S10 (same as a Torsen) and can tell you for sure that it is far better in every situation than the factory Gov-Loc. There is no engaging and disengaging because it is always active splitting the torque to both wheels. I like the Tru-Trac so much that I'm going to install one in my ZR2. Tru-Tracs are very strong and are also excellent on the street. I've been running one in my SS on road courses for the past 10 years with no problems or complaints.

BTW, 1/4" of play in either driveshaft is normal. All of my 4 wd S10's have had that much play. The play comes from the t-case.

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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by s10 again »

Thanks for the info on the Tru-Track Steve!

I keep looking around and many like these geared LSDs even in snow and ice. But I have read some find the a little twitchy on ice as well.

I wish I only had a 1/4 of and inch of slop in my drive shaft but it is 1/4 of a turn. :shock: This with the trans in neutral turning the shaft by hand. There is a hard clunk once it finds something to grab.

Thanks again.

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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by s10 again »

Ok guys I think I'm going to go for the zr2 rear. I have to sale a house before I get the jeep I want so even if I sale or trade the CC it will be a while. Since I don't know if I'll keep my little truck might as well treat it like it's going to stay for the long haul. It will be a couple of weeks before tax money comes in so I have time to look this over good.

HJ I'm a little worried about the rear I linked to on ebay(even though I can't get it yet). First thing is the missing bracket for the brake line you pointed out. Next is that damper what is that for? I think it might have something to do with drive shaft vibs or balancing. I'm still trying to find the site that pointed out the damper saying it was a ext cab vs. reg cab or year thing. If find it I'll post it. My worry is that will cause an imbalance since we don't have one. I'm guessing it comes off or like you said I could buy a correct yoke for it. I just hate taking it the yoke off with there being a crush sleeve involved. I know just check torque then re-torque to same. But I'm going to have to count on the help of someone that has no experience so the closer to bolt in the better. Do you know if your axle was out of a reg or ext. cab?

Next trick I have read that I might need a scan tool to bleed the brakes is that true. If so would superchips programmer that reads codes work for that?

Thank you all your help guys.

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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by HenryJ »

I'll check to see what mine came out of tomorrow.

Don't worry about the vibration dampener. It will not hurt and might help? It is just a metal ring isolated by rubber. It absorbs vibration much like the way the dynamic wheel balancers work. It would tend to make a bad situation better.
It would not bother me, although anytime you increase the rotating mass, you gobble up some of the acceleration.

The whole scan tool to bleed thing is for the antilock braking module. That will not be an issue bleeding the brakes at the wheel cylinders.

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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by s10 again »

Cool your a life saver. Now I just need to wait for tax money to rotate in. IF found a nice zr2 rear I could borrow the funds.

A local yard can get a zr2 rear for 850 but I need to check to see how complete it is. Once I get the axle I'll post how it goes in the zr2 upgrade thread to keep everything together for the next victom. :lol:

Thanks

Chris
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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by s10 again »

Ok guys,

I wanted to post that we found the problem. I hate reading threads that ask about problem but get dropped without a response as to what was found once repairs were underway or completed.

We have had good weather and I have regained minimal use of my broken wrist. So we spent part of the last 2 days cleaning out the garage to get the crew half way out the weather.

This eve we pulled the diff cover off so I can get the shafts out and remove the backing plates. I thought there was going to be a horror show inside as brown gear oil drained from the cracked open cover. Once I finished removing the couple of bolts left in place to keep the cover from popping off sending a wave of oil off me and directed into the drain pan. I found no parts or pieces just laying in the bottom of the diff. I had my wife rock a axle shaft back and forth and the play was evident but something was off. So I twisted the drive shaft and I could see THIS WAS NOT A G80 FAILURE !!!

Instead I watched as the ring gear was being repelled by the pinion. My carrier bearings are at fault or should I say what carrier bearings. I placed a tire iron under the ring gear an with very little pressure I can move the carrier well over a 1/4 of an inch up,down or backwards. Yet some how my gears don't look to bad. But I would have to pull them out to verify that that they are ok.

But I have the zr2 axle sanded and painted ready to be swapped. So this story will continue under the ZR2 axle swap thread.

Thanx everyone. :wave:
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Re: A little diff help! long

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Thank you for the update!!!!!!!
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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by nolag24 »

I am a site newbie and wish I would have found it sooner!
I just sold my 91 s-10 with bushwacker cut outs, 2" BL after 15 yrs and 208k miles and bought a 2003 ZR5. Unfortunately, the truck has 3.42 gears and no G80. Can the G80 be added to the stock 3.42 rear setup without a hitch?
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Re: A little diff help! long

Post by HenryJ »

There should be no problem swapping in a G80. You would need an install kit which has new shims and bearings. The set up should be fairly easy as pinion depth is already set. All you need to do is get the backlash set correctly.

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