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No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:21 am

Taking a stab in the dark here in the hopes that someone might be able to answer a couple of questions. I'm not having any luck on the heep forums but, I understand it is the weekend and most of the heep gurus are out playing on rocks.

Background.......

Last Sunday our club held our annual New Years Day Hangover ride at a former rock racing comp site near Jellico, TN. During the ride, I thought that I was making to many 3-5 point turns and my steering pump was screaming for mercy. That usually indicates that the front ARB air actuated locker was locked. I only engage my front locker when it's absolutely required on things like rock ledges, steep climbs and very loose surfaces. I turn it off immediately afterwards. Steering is really a struggle with a front end locked. Okay, trail ride finished, tires aired back up from 8 to 30 psi and I hit the pavement to head home. I literally had to fight my way down a twisting mountain road with no pull offs or even a shoulder. I was positive I locked in the front. Found a pull off after hitting the bottom and finding a wide spot. I discoed the air line from the compressor but, remained locked. Gave up and drove home and even made a 3 pt turn into my driveway. Anyway, the problem was a twisted off copper air line and once that was fixed we arrive at my current issue.

The one question below, concerning the bearing caps, has been solved. LarryN, BTW, is the associate publisher of KRAWL magazine and a very friendly and knowledgeable guy.

f9k9 wrote:LarryN's suggestion was dead on. Once we popped off the entire bulkhead fitting, the locker was disengaged. While a good friend and fellow club member of mine and I worked on repairing the air line we discovered some issues that may be normal but, we suspect not.

I paid to have the ARB and 5.13s installed by a former club member a couple of years ago and I suspect that I probably got what I paid for. Then again, he owes me some money that I am unable to collect. I will deal with that later.

Anyway, while we had the diff opened up checking the air line, we noticed movement of the air line when turning the wheels to verify that the locker was working.

Here's a short vid.... The air line is not touching the ring gear, although it appears to. It only moves when locked. Just need someone to confirm that this is not normal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezKAdeRwBKE&feature=youtu.be

We also noticed that the passenger side shim(s) seemed to be protruding out. A minor tap of a hammer and brass punch drove it out of sight. We think this is not a good sign, as well.

Image

By this time, we are thinking that the installer may have been a tad inept and that even the bearing caps may have been switched. Can anyone verify that the front driver's side oem bearing cap had a cut out in it like the photo below? I am afraid that when I installed my diff covers and changed fluid that I did not pay attention those caps.

Image
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby HenryJ » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:21 am

Here it is from my perspective.

The air line moving: I have no prior experience, but from looking at the installation directions that piece should not move. It should be sandwiched by the bearing preload. Now I could be wrong as I do not know how it is keyed to prevent rotation and the clearances of that key and key way. Some movement may be permissible.

If the carrier bearing shims are coming out they are too loose. Those bearings require preload. I'm guessing that a case spreader was not used and one IS be required for this installation. That is the only way to properly install the carrier assembly. If I had to guess he used a dealblow hammer on the install. I've done it on a quick fix replacement, but you really can't on new bearings and carrier. They require a greater starting preload.

ARB install.PDF

Make sure the next guy has a case spreader and can properly set the carrier bearing preload.

Oh. also if at all possible I'd eliminate that splice in the copper tube. It will loosen with time and be a PITA. If at all possible, replace the copper line with one single piece.

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby HenryJ » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:26 am

I can probably get my case spreader into a flat rate box and ship it to you if you can't find what you need locally.

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby HenryJ » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:52 pm

Thinking about this a little more... Don't those bearing caps cover the installation shims? That big washer on the end that is out should be covered by the cap a little shouldn't it?
You might check the orientation.
Look for an indexing mark. I punch mine before removal to make sure I get them back on the correct side and right side up.

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:24 pm

HenryJ wrote:Thinking about this a little more... Don't those bearing caps cover the installation shims? That big washer on the end that is out should be covered by the cap a little shouldn't it?
You might check the orientation.
Look for an indexing mark. I punch mine before removal to make sure I get them back on the correct side and right side up.
Don't know but, it is obviously going to require more research.

HenryJ wrote:Here it is from my perspective.

..........If the carrier bearing shims are coming out they are too loose. Those bearings require preload. I'm guessing that a case spreader was not used and one IS be required for this installation. That is the only way to properly install the carrier assembly........
From research, I am inclined to agree with you. I believe we can lay our mitts on a spreader and my partner, in crime, is the asst manager at a local parts store so the master install kit will not be all that costly.

HenryJ wrote:.......Oh. also if at all possible I'd eliminate that splice in the copper tube. It will loosen with time and be a PITA. If at all possible, replace the copper line with one single piece.
While I agree that our splice should be replaced due to the fact that we went with what ARB advised couldn't be done (splicing a 2.3mm line with a 1/8" line) it's pretty common because O-rings occasionally go out in the locker and need to be replaced. Removing the carrier almost always breaks the line requiring an additional $100 part. By discoing it, the O-rings can be be replaced somewhat cheaply. However I am going to order the $100 part that the copper tube is attached to and replace it. I'll have time to locate the proper parts to keep it all 2.3 mm and be able to unhook it.

There is a lot of good info found here on Stu Olsons' site

As always, thanks for the assistance, Brule!! :thumb:
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby HenryJ » Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:35 pm

Setting it up again should be very low cost. All you need may be a few shims. Time and tools will do the rest.

If the pattern is good adding a few thousandths in shims to get some preload may be all you need to do. Well that and figure out proper orientation of the caps.
Easy weekend job if you have enough "drinks and smokes" ;)
F9K9 wrote:...While I agree that our splice should be replaced due to the fact that we went with what ARB advised couldn't be done (splicing a 2.3mm line with a 1/8" line)
Good logic there. I did not know there was a size difference and the need for this transition.
I approve :)

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:22 pm

The caps are okay. We got that figured out. The spacer/shims need some more research, though. Thanks again!
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby HenryJ » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:04 pm

Tapered roller bearings can handle quite a bit of preload. The do not need lots, but will not survive with none. A little tight is better than loose. Case spreader and a few shims you will be back in good shape. :thumb:

You have done more than you know. I'm always here to do my part too. Thank you.

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:52 pm

Just in case anyone is bored and following this......the heep forums have remained silent but, issues get buried fast on them. Brule's spreader is eastward bound and we think we have a game plan.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby HenryJ » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:30 pm

That spreader is one tool most don't keep around. Gotta have it to set up a Dana axle though. 40# of steel in two boxes on the way to you this morning :)
Kinda fun to be part of it from so far away :) I will say that I have never loaned tools this far away. Heck, I usually never loan tools :evil:

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby rlrnr53 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:53 pm

I'd like to have te tools I've loaned and not been returned.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby saab9k » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:19 am

I used to loan tools out. For some reason they were never returned.

Now i charge a double value deposit, people think i am crazy.

I still have the tools.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby HenryJ » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:52 am

The flip side of this is that some times there are tools that are very specialized and expensive. It is impossible to justify spending $400 on a spreader that you will use once. None around to rent as it is a very specific application.
That is where it really helps to have built that relationship with someone who has access to stuff like this.
Reed has mentioned many times that local clubs bare a fantastic way to build that circle of friends. I bet he never thought one trip to Moab would have stretched that circle so far :)

Unfortunately for him he is paying the rent on this tool...and more than you know, or would ever be able to pay :evil:

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:30 pm

HenryJ wrote:..........Reed has mentioned many times that local clubs bare a fantastic way to build that circle of friends. I bet he never thought one trip to Moab would have stretched that circle so far................
You're correct about everything that you mentioned. Our club has members that own machine shops, do fabrication for a living, own tranny shops.....etc. No spreaders in sight and yet there's rigs running everything from the lowly Dana 30s to 2 1/2 ton Rockwells in our club. None available to rent and the average price is $400 for a spreader and that is before shipping. I found one online under $200 but, I bet it has as much quality as a Harbor Freight BJ press. I bent one right off the bat and it resides in my scrap metal pile now. $40 just tossed to the wind.

I don't need to loan tools out to lose them. I've had them disappear and that is since I moved into a secure garage. H*ll, I don't even have convicted felon/step-sons to blame now. :roflmao:

This adventure will be interesting, I am sure. Already have $150 in specialized parts in route and that is before pulling the locker out. I hope that I don't find more evidence of an inept install and the associated costs. Somehow, this thing has held together for two years and for that I am appreciative.

For those aspiring wheelers, join a local club, and once you meet their requirements for a trail ride, just do it. There is allot of knowledge there to learn from.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby roadrunner » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:55 pm

I'm tellin ya man. You gotta make that location felonious-duck proof. You may think they haven't found you but sounds like they've just gotten sneaky. :lol:
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:50 pm

Unfortunately, the guy that helped me last Friday nite had his knee "blow up". Started aching Sat morning and was black and blue by Monday. He agrees that never did a thing to injure it but, he is at the ER as I type. Those ducks are getting worse, apparently.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby roadrunner » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:46 pm

Sorry about your friend. Maybe you need to use reverse-psychology on them ducks. Get a duck call and camo outfit and maybe a lab. start calling em with intent to kill and eat. They'll probably flock away from you in droves. :) 8)
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:11 pm

Long story but, I think he's ok but, have no update.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby rlrnr53 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:25 pm

Reed, I may be bringing a Cherokee into the family, I may have questions for you since you have a little experience.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:43 pm

rlrnr53 wrote:Reed, I may be bringing a Cherokee into the family, I may have questions for you since you have a little experience.
You're gonna have to define "Cherokee" for me but, I am here to help all that I can. I can recommend a forum or two and tell you which ones to steer clear of. :roflmao: Because of Brule, I have developed some really awesome contacts in the Jeep arena. Through researching and posting about my current problem here and on another forum, I have Brule's tool/knowledge, the publisher of Crawl magazine's publisher's private email address and his personal cell ph number. If, that wasn't enough, I have received call from another jeepdom "guru" that has built a rig and is in the middle of building another rig for a different class for this yrs King of the Hammers. PM/call/email and I will do what I can. to help out. Might help out if, I knew if, it's a grand or the beloved squared ones.

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby rlrnr53 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:13 pm

If the deal goes through, it will be one of the square ones. It will be for my daughter, because of my grandson.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:37 pm

Will try to help anyway that I can. Just give me a shout.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby Loudmouth » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:27 pm

I'll never do another Dana axle without a case spreader! As I was tuning the spreader and watching it open, the nightmares of doing my d30 and d35 in my old TJ were whisked away!

Thanks again to Brule from somebody you've never met!
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby HenryJ » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:39 pm

Just glad I could help! I'll admit to a couple installs using pry bars and deadblow hammers. A case spreader makes it easy to do it right for sure. Glad you guys "got'r dun".

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby Loudmouth » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:49 pm

On my first ever install of a Detroit in my long since gone TJ I actually cracked a factory cast master shim with a brass hammer (insert head slap!) of course in a borrowed garage with, no other shims close by! Just because it says it's ok to "tap" those shims in to create your preload doesn't mean it will always work!

Thanks again, Reed was getting a bottle of Mothers Gold Class to put a nice coat of wax on the spreader before he tried to figure out how to rebox it lol!
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby HenryJ » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:59 pm

Loudmouth wrote:... Reed was getting a bottle of Mothers Gold Class to put a nice coat of wax on the spreader before he tried to figure out how to rebox it lol!
:roflmao:

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:12 am

Actually, I only used Turtle Wax ICE. :mrgreen: I reviewed all of the photos that I took during the unpacking procedure and was able to repackage it accordingly. I even dropped them off at Office Depot to begin their journey home but, grew more and more paranoid with every mile I drove until I turned around and retrieved them. It all went together to easy and that scares me. Going to hang on to them for a few days.


Here's a photo as proof :roflmao:
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:19 pm

I figured you guys might need an update on this chapter of my luck and migratory water fowl.

With the use of Brule's case spreader we replaced seal and copper air line. We set the carrier preload and pinion preload. Ran a few gear patterns and buttoned it all back up. I cleaned up the case spreader, carefully repacked it and delivered it to Office Depot to go back west. Leaving there, I heard or imagined that I heard something not right. I didn't feel good about this and hung a u turn and went back to Office Depot and made them dig out the boxes and refund my money.

It was just making too much noise to suit us. We tore it apart and replaced the ring and pinion gears, seals and all new bearings. We painstakingly set it up and followed the FSM's specs for preload, backlash, torque, grease.....etc. Less than two miles into my test drive, I heard a bang and had a shudder. Pulled over checked it out, nothing visible. Slowly limped home and put it up on jack stands. First thing I discover is that my passenger chromoly outer axle shaft had snapped it two.

Image

I then began to disassemble the differential and can't get the pinion out. The beatings began!

Image

I accepted the fact that I have bludgeoned the pinion so badly that it needs replaced so I yanked the new seal only to reveal that the pinion, pinion bearings and housing have become one.

Image

Now real panic is setting in because, I figure the housing is toast. Money is limited and every Heep owner in the world is looking for used Rubicon Dana 44 axles and driving prices up. I was already hanging on to the Heep, by the skin of my teeth, because of higher priorities, like medical bills. Once again, the internet let a couple gurus tell me that it may be saved by heat and a large press. First shop tried it, had it cherry red and when the 20 ton press began to fail, they stopped. No charge. Second shop used a torch, like a scalpel and saved it for $60.

While all of this is going on, my friend, Loudmouth, is almost suicidal over this. He blamed himself for this failure. We both looked for reasons for what could have caused this. We were together for every step except, when I reinstalled the axle and filled it with oil. I have to change diff oil frequently and I know that the FSM states to fill with 40 oz for a stock front D44. However, mines lifted, the pinion angle is greater and I have an aftermarket diff cover/armor. I usually throw in around 50 oz. Anymore than that and it will start to puke the oil out the vent line at highway speeds. So, I KNOW that it had plenty of oil in it. Again the heep forums weren't much help. I turned to Larry Nickell again and he asked for our specs and more pictures. The FSM states that the pinion needs 20-40 INCH POUNDS of preload with new bearings. We split the difference and had 30. When he heard that, he didn't blink and said that 30 was too high and that was the cause. He sets his up at 14-19 in lbs. We set them up again and the front has been golden since.

The spreader is finally headed home 10 months late. The rear axle nightmare began in July and will be told another day.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby roadrunner » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:11 pm

Condolences Reed. You sure do have trouble with that waterfowl. Make sure you keep em down your way. I can get in enough trouble without help from any of them. lol
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby _STUCKY » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:12 pm

I was gonna say, "why not put in a hi pinion from a 96+ xj?" But....

F9K9 wrote:
Now real panic is setting in because, I figure the housing is toast. Money is limited and every Heep owner in the world is looking for used Rubicon Dana 44 axles and driving prices up.


You have a Rubicon? What kinda crap you have laying around that you don't use or need? I'm always on the look out for deals...

Also, what's the specs on the ol' jeep? Lets see some pictures, too!
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:15 pm

_STUCKY wrote:I was gonna say, "why not put in a hi pinion from a 96+ xj?" But....

F9K9 wrote:
Now real panic is setting in because, I figure the housing is toast. Money is limited and every Heep owner in the world is looking for used Rubicon Dana 44 axles and driving prices up.


You have a Rubicon?..........................
Ummmmm yes.

_STUCKY wrote:.........What kinda crap you have laying around that you don't use or need?.......................
Junk that you don't need. OEM sliders, gas tank skid, tranny and TC skid were given away to club members. Stock drive shafts are either sold or carried as spares. Rubicon locker pumps are sold. Lockers are toast and replacement parts to repair them were never available. They are in my scrap metal pile.

_STUCKY wrote:Also, what's the specs on the ol' jeep? Lets see some pictures, too!

Before I knew better I purchased and installed a Rubicon Express 3.5" Superflex lift kit, a M.O.R.E. one inch motor mount lift and a PA 1" BL. I also installed an AEV/Nth Tummy Tuck with their tranny and engine skid. This was before low cog and weight became an issue. I paid my dues by not researching enough. Sold the POS RE lift and moved on to Currie upper and lower adjustable control arms and track bars with JJ or Johnny joints on each end and on the front axle housing.

Still running the RE 3.5 inch springs but, they will not be around long. Want to lower to 3" progressives and work on my wheel openings with tube fenders or a sawzall.

Besides the suspension components mentioned..............

Currie HD steering setup
Savvy Under Armor
Savvy gas tank skid
Savvy aluminum corners
Savvy SS tub rail
Trail Gear Sliders
Genright hood louvers
MAC's CAI
Black Magic pads and Centric premium rotors
RockHard sport cage
Carbeau Moab seats
Carbeau racing restraints/harnesses
CO2 as OBA and........................................................................................

Everything that Brule has been patient enough to explain to me. :mrgreen:

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby _STUCKY » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:03 pm

:shock: you have some money invested, especially in the savvy stuff! The guys that run that place, or at least who ever is on pirate representing them, is a rude SOB that I'd never hand my money to. They have very nice stuff, though.

Are you running stock steering? Only reason I ask, is because we busted the steering (technical term evades me, but the rod that goes knuckle to knuckle) on my buddy's girlfriends TJ. It popped so easy, on something so stupid. We robbed it off of my Comanche so they could drive home. The poor little mj currently sits with a smashed bed and the front tires pointed opposite directions.

Stay away from smittybuilt tube fenders. I saw them on a jeep, guy did the best he could, but they still looked like crap. He can make some nice stuff, too. He had a pretty cool rat rod he built from nothing, but he couldn't get those fenders to mesh up. Not only did they look bad, but they didn't look stout either. It was because you have to cut the inner fender from the outer and replace the outer. I'd stay far, far away from those. Other than that, I've got no experience with spending money on fenders. Hell, mine are hammered :mrgreen:

So what about gears? Tire size?

I've picked up a hi pinion xj axle recently, I've had a disk brake 31 spline 8.8 for a while, and recently ordered the 8.8 artec truss, and cutthroat4x4 u bolt eliminator kit. Need gears (4.88 front and rear or 4.10 rear and swap guts for the front), lockers (spartan front and welded rear most likely), front spring perches, sye, and I really want a 231/231 doubler. I may end up with the outer sleeve kit for the d30 from poly performance, too, instead of a truss. The rest will be just kind of maintenance and change of plans and odds and ends. Example being if/when the t case comes off, I've got a lil do dad to fix 5th gear, and if that happens, I might as well put in a new clutch. Snowball effect, you know. I'm also torn between trying to change out the rear suspension for spring over and match the height of the front or to just do it spring under with the springs I have and have a rough ride with little to no spring wrap. Choices choices. I have a feeling if I keep pushing it where I have been, I'm gonna need a proper cage soon, but once tube starts getting bent, I want to lose basically everything but the firewall, windshield, and hood. I picture a 2.5/ax5/231/231 going to a hpD30 and 8.8 with 4.88s with 2 seats and a cage. Basically a lightweight juggy that sips fuel while bouncing off the rev limiter and up ledges. Trailered, of course :thumb:
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:50 am

_STUCKY wrote::shock: you have some money invested, especially in the savvy stuff! The guys that run that place, or at least who ever is on pirate representing them, is a rude SOB that I'd never hand my money to. They have very nice stuff, though.............
I'd be interested in seeing links concerning this one. Savvy is basically just two guys. Blaine Johnson and Gerald Lee. I'm guessing the "rude SOB" may be Blaine or Mrblaine, as he goes by on the forums. Comes across as rude but, just doesn't put up with BS or ignorance. He calls them as he sees them but, has a heart bigger than many would guess. I have never called the man but, Blaine has called me several times to offer suggestions about whatever my problem was after a "duck airstrike". :roflmao: Savvy was the first one to step up to help with my wife's cancer benefit last year. Gerald Lee was John Currie's co-driver in this year's King of the Hammers "Every man's Challenge" overall winner. Their stock class heep beat out the Ultra 4 cars by a few minutes! I got in with Savvy when they were just beginning and run most of their stuff as a prototype tester with, discounted prices before they and their prices become finalized.
_STUCKY wrote:.........Stay away from smittybuilt tube fenders............
I stay away from anything that Rusty, Smittybilt, Rubicon Express, BDS,..........etc. offers.
_STUCKY wrote:.........So what about gears? Tire size?.........
5.13s and Goodyear MT/R Kevlar 315/75-16s or 35s
_STUCKY wrote:..........Are you running stock steering? Only reason I ask, is because we busted the steering (technical term evades me, but the rod that goes knuckle to knuckle) on my buddy's girlfriends TJ. It popped so easy, on something so stupid. We robbed it off of my Comanche so they could drive home. The poor little mj currently sits with a smashed bed and the front tires pointed opposite directions...........
As I mentioned, Currie HD steering. TJ, XJ and MJ drag links are pretty sorry. At a minimum, upgrade to V8 ZJ parts. Next time you see someone twist a stock drag link, pull it off, grab a Hi-Lift jack handle and use it as a sleeve and they can drive out and even home with it.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby _STUCKY » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:35 am

I'll try to find the link to the savvy jackassery. That's good to know that they stepped up to help, not a lot of people would do that. I've never met them, talked to them, ect. Just seen them be overly rude, and that says a lot since it was on pirate lol. Pirate's nice would be very rude on this forum.

I missed the curry steering. Using a jack handle wasn't gonna work, it snapped right next to the tierod. I've got 4 Dana 30s sitting around, but only the Comanche had the piece we needed.

Sounds and looks like a very nice jeep. When you gonna cram those axles under the s10 and upgrade? :evil:
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby _STUCKY » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:13 am

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep-non ... fugee.html

I didn't re-read much of that, but basically 1 guy says something they don't like and they just go on and on and on about why they are so much better at everything and anything. They may have nice products but they come off as arrogant and cocky. I do think its funny I had read some of that one day, then a couple days later saw they were still whining, so I said something about the whining, I wasn't nice about it, and it stopped. :evil: I'm just a no body, but they heard me!

I just think that they were/ maybe still are saying some very childish things when they should have let it go in one ear and out the other. They are a business, and that is not how I would want my business ran. Word of mouth is a powerful thing. If you run a business you should conduct yourself like a business man. You don't see the guys from offroaddesign.com or diy4x.com or artec.com or any of the other amazing companies making amazing products talking trash like the savvy guys.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby killian96ss » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:11 am

I've never worked on a Dana, but all of the GM 10 and 12 bolts I've rebuilt had a pinion preload anywhere from 10-12 inch #'s for used bearings to 14-16 inch #'s for new bearings and I never had any problems later. New bearings and races require more preload than used bearings that are already broke in. 30 inch pounds does seem to high! Too much preload will overheat and destroy the bearings! If I lived a whole lot closer I would glady help out. Ducks don't like me, although they do pay me a visit from time to time. :punch:

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:38 pm

_STUCKY wrote:http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep-non-hardcore/1015658-first-thread-pirate-jeepforum-refugee.html

I didn't re-read much of that, but basically 1 guy says something they don't like and they just go on and on and on about why they are so much better at everything and anything. They may have nice products but they come off as arrogant and cocky. I do think its funny I had read some of that one day, then a couple days later saw they were still whining, so I said something about the whining, I wasn't nice about it, and it stopped. :evil: I'm just a no body, but they heard me!...........
I read that entire 11 page Pirate thread and was pretty much out of control. Gerald posted a couple of times and then stopped early on. Mrblaine is what he is and it had nothing to do with his products. Several of the antagonists were proud of being banned from the JeepForum and bashing anyone with authority there. Savvy offered generous alternatives to satisfy one of the naysayers but, he turned down the offers to be able to bash Savvy. Jeepforum is not my preferred hang out but, I have gotten many good answers there if, I sort through the usual "what size tire will fit with a brand X ?" lift BS. Most TJ questions can be found and answered on the Rubicon Owners Forum and no, you don't have to own a Rubicon to post there. Don't let a couple of threads on Pirate turn you off to Mrblaine, Gerald and Savvy.

I know for a fact that if, you were "broke" anywhere in southern CA, that you could call Blaine at 3 am and he would come to your rescue or know someone that was closer to come to your aid before he could.

_STUCKY wrote:..................When you gonna cram those axles under the s10 and upgrade? :evil:
Probably never, I have learned a lot, in the last few years. The TJ's wheelbase is to short and the CC's wheel base is too long for our trails here and elsewhere. Thinking about tubing the rear and going with 14 bolts front and rear but, in reality, a trailer queen, it will never be. Just no chance of a tow rig and trailer in my lifetime. I DD to the trail head and drive home.

On another note.................

My rear OEM Rubicon locker decided to grenade on my lunch hour back in early July. No dramatic trail ride story, no attempting a four foot rock ledge when it went. I just turned right before my final one block to return to work. Limped home, threw it up on jack stands and pulled the diff cover. The limited slip spider gears failed and took a nasty chunk out of the ring gear. I was all doom and gloom because, there is no cushion with our finances, due to medical bills. Just our copay for her infusion every three weeks is $550 and this was before her operation in Houston, TX. It was also, before six weeks of radiation there with the motel bills and other costs. It was for sale and I was going to part it out and make the best of it. She cusses the Heep every day but, she knows it is my third love after her and the CC. She finagled the bills, with help from new insurance, and I sold a couple of guns to come up with the money to rebuild the rear. This time, "Loudmouth" was not available to assist me in the process.

I learned a lot through research and found that the pretty yellow gear marking pattern paint was not long for this world (because of lead content.) A small amount is provided with master rebuild kits but, I wanted this to be dead on and approved by a serious builder. I found a couple small GM tubes of yellow paint online and have that stockpiled.

I scrapped up the funds to upgrade and rebuild the rear, utilizing an ARB air locker. I worked with Larry Nickell, utilizing photos and specs, to get it right. Hopefully I am good for a year or two.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby _STUCKY » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:31 pm

I'm currently polishing an xj Dana 30 for my yj. I'm curious what ball joints you have in the rubi.

Stock? (Dana/Spicer ~$55-60 per side)
http://www.4wheelparts.com/Drivetrain-D ... 30+Reverse

Synergy Suspension? These have been all the rage with pirate guys ($250 for a full set)
http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/Syn ... 26182.html

Cheapos? (~$20-30 each)
http://www.carid.com/1993-jeep-grand-ch ... Mgodg34ATg

I'm leaning towards the Dana/Spicers, but if I'm gonna put on the Turd-O-Shine, I may as well do the synergy ones. It's going to get a truss, C gussets, and will see almost constant abuse with 35s and/or bigger. I'll upgrade to chromoly shafts when I break stock shafts. I haven't bought gears or a locker yet, but will most likely be a spartan locker with 4.88s.

Whatcha think?
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:39 pm

_STUCKY wrote:I'm currently polishing an xj Dana 30 for my yj. I'm curious what ball joints you have in the rubi..........
I'm running XRFs right now. They were quite the rage before Polyperformance started making theirs. Early reports on the XRFs came out shortly after I installed mine and they are not good, despite their warranty. Some failures as early as 5K when beat on. I wanted to bail on them and install Spicers but, Blaine (Mrblaine) requested that I run them to get additional data from someone that he knew. So, I am still running the XRFs for now. In your position, I'd go with the Spicers.

When you actually have the axle trussed and the Cs with gussets then, look at the Synergy BJs. You'll possibly go in a different direction by then.

On your decision to go with a HP D30 out of an XJ, I think it's a good choice. I've seen them wheeled hard and when beefed up, take some serious abuse on rocks. When I was talking with Larry Nickell, from Crawl mag, about the possibility of my front Rubi 44 being toasted, he suggested the same axle if, I couldn't get another rubi D44. I would have considered one but, I was already geared for 5.13s and 4.88s are as deep as you can go with the D30.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby _STUCKY » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:25 pm

F9K9 wrote:On your decision to go with a HP D30 out of an XJ, I think it's a good choice. I've seen them wheeled hard and when beefed up, take some serious abuse on rocks. When I was talking with Larry Nickell, from Crawl mag, about the possibility of my front Rubi 44 being toasted, he suggested the same axle if, I couldn't get another rubi D44. I would have considered one but, I was already geared for 5.13s and 4.88s are as deep as you can go with the D30.


I've seriously abused the stock yj axle as is! It's been all over the badlands in Attica, Indiana twice, Washita in Farmington, Missouri once, flat nasty in Jadwin, Missouri once, EZ Muddin' in Murryville, Illinois several times (closed now, was a 20 minute drive there) and who knows how many times I've beat on it out on family owned property. No breakage yet, other than a u joint or 2. I replaced the brakes (everything) and unit bearings when I put the lift on, which was right after getting it. It's got 4.10s stock (it's a 2.5 super duper base model "Rio Grande") and the CAD (doesn't work right, I've pulled the vacuum lines going to it and it still is engaged, better than disengaged if you ask me). A previous owner hit something hard and bent the drivers side upper C. That's the reason for another axle. I've had another yj CAD Dana 30 around for a while, but decided to find an xj axle so I could truss it easier (no cast in CAD housing to work around). I've had tj/xj shafts for a while, too, but could never find the correct seal. I ended up sorting through parts books at the local O'rielly's and napa, ordering probably 10 different seals that were all so very, very close, but still not correct. The xj axle just makes it all so much easier. Some may say "why go through the trouble for a Dana 30?" My answer to that is simple: u joints and a pretty picture...

Image

Front left to right:
Yj/xj/tj Dana 30. 27 spline inner and outer
Scout II Dana 44. 30 spline inner, 27 spline outer
Chevy Dana 60. 35 spline inner, 30 outer
All are stock shafts. Dana 30s and 44s use the same u joint.

If you are gonna go big, go BIG. I don't see the reason to swap a 30 for a 44 when you can't upgrade the joint. Sure you can put the latest and greatest in u joint technology in it with the best whiz bang axle shafts out there, but the joint and ears on the shaft still are not any bigger. I plan to keep it "small". I'll put a 60 in an older Chevy if I ever snag one.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:59 am

_STUCKY wrote:............................If you are gonna go big, go BIG. I don't see the reason to swap a 30 for a 44 when you can't upgrade the joint. Sure you can put the latest and greatest in u joint technology in it with the best whiz bang axle shafts out there, but the joint and ears on the shaft still are not any bigger. I plan to keep it "small". I'll put a 60 in an older Chevy if I ever snag one.
I'm keeping mine "as is" for now. You can go with chromoly shafts and CTM joints for right around $1000 or you can just upgrade to RCV shafts and saw good bye to ujoints altogether. I'm undecided because keeping the ujoints as the weak link or a fuse for failure is a cheap alternative to grenading the ring and pinion.

I am tempted with the RCVs if, I break another chromoly axle. The problem with the RCV is that you have to modify the knuckle slightly and that will prevent upgrading to a Vanco big brake kit. Stock TJ front brakes are pretty sorry and with 5.13 gears, 35s , 4:1 tcase and an auto tranny makes it tend to drive through the brakes in 4 low.

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby _STUCKY » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:24 am

F9K9 wrote:I'm keeping mine "as is" for now. You can go with chromoly shafts and CTM joints for right around $1000 or you can just upgrade to RCV shafts and saw good bye to ujoints altogether. I'm undecided because keeping the ujoints as the weak link or a fuse for failure is a cheap alternative to grenading the ring and pinion.


I like the logic of a "cheap fuse". U joints are easy and cheap. If you have the unit bearing broke loose already, they aren't too bad to change out. I keep telling my buddy we need to break them loose on his girlfriends tj before we break a u joint while out and about. When we haul them to the offroad parks, I've got at least 1 of every u joint that my yj takes in the back, and I'm yet to need them :D

What are your thoughts on the 4.56/4.88 Dana 30 ring and pinion strength difference? You hear a lot of guys say that 4.88s are vastly inferior to 4.56s, then you see people say they have had them for years. It's gonna get abused, but I don't drive stupid, so I can't really see myself having too much trouble...

Edit: what are the shafts with the joints in the picture? Looks like the u joint is toast lol

Edit 2: I almost forgot to ask... What are your impressions of those ball joints? What was the reason for taking out the stockers? Were they worn out? And if so, about how many miles were on them? I'll order the Dana/Spicers today probably. I did a lot of reading on ball joints last night, and the general consensus is that the plastic inside wears out. If only we had a metal on metal greasable ball joint...
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:49 pm

_STUCKY wrote:...........If you have the unit bearing broke loose already, they aren't too bad to change out. I keep telling my buddy we need to break them loose on his girlfriends tj before we break a u joint while out and about..............
They're are easily broken loose. Check out Stu Olsen's site.. Apply antiseize to any fastener you remove and on the knuckle where they mate up. I carry complete spare axles for the front and one for the rear.

_STUCKY wrote:What are your thoughts on the 4.56/4.88 Dana 30 ring and pinion strength difference? You hear a lot of guys say that 4.88s are vastly inferior to 4.56s, then you see people say they have had them for years. It's gonna get abused, but I don't drive stupid, so I can't really see myself having too much trouble...
I'd go with the 4.88s if, you don't get stupid on the skinny.
_STUCKY wrote:Edit: what are the shafts with the joints in the picture? Looks like the u joint is toast lol...
Haven't a clue. I grabbed the pic off of google.

_STUCKY wrote:Edit 2: I almost forgot to ask... What are your impressions of those ball joints? What was the reason for taking out the stockers? Were they worn out? And if so, about how many miles were on them?...
So far the XRFs are tight.

The reason for taking out the stock BJs was the photo below. 30K on the spicers. The failure took out the chromoly inner shaft, outer shaft, ujount and tweaked the inner C.

Image

It made for a long day and a strange method for recovery. I don't even want to know where the telephone pole came from.

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby _STUCKY » Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:51 pm

That looks fun! Do you have a picture of the carnage up close? Did you do anything to straighten the C?

So I just looked at the synergy ball joints again. From the picture they appear to be metal on metal and both greasable. I'm tempted...but at twice the price... :shock:
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:04 pm

_STUCKY wrote:That looks fun! Do you have a picture of the carnage up close? Did you do anything to straighten the C?......................

No real close ups. Check out those ears on the chromoly axle shaft.

Image

Grabbed a donor XJ axle tube and "C" and grafted it on my housing. Then the Cs were gusseted but, no photos right now. It was a "hurry up" job and the gussets slightly contact my coils at the bottom (axle) side but, it isn't creating any issues.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby _STUCKY » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:46 am

My Dana 30 project is coming along slowly, but surely. Dana/Spicer ball joints have been ordered. Axle tubes are cleaned up. We have the truss plotted out, if my buddy had brought his laptop with bend-tech (may be spelled wrong) on it, we would have bend up the truss last night. Thursday we should have the tube all bent and cut and ready to weld on. He's got a plan for the C gussets. We are going to be making a u bolt eliminator using old wagoneer spring plates, spring under axle. The plates have a little ramped part that goes around the bolt holes... If only I can find the other spring plate, if not we will just make some. Today I plan on ordering gears, locker, master install kit, and carrier. Jeez, this stuff is expensive...gotta pay to play.

My buddy has had a bit of bad luck lately. He recently got on as a police officer for the Springfield PD. Last week, his daily driver and jeep tow rig had a crack show itself on the transmission, pouring fluid all over his parents nice driveway. So he had been driving his new wife's tj ( the blue one, I have a picture in my junk thread). 2 nights ago, he got off work, still in uniform, driving home, the guy in front of him (so I was told) hit his brakes hard and my buddy rear ended him, then got rear ended by a truck. The front of the jeep is fine, it bent the stock bumper. The back however is another story... He doesn't have a bumper on the back, not that stock jeep bumpers are very stout, but the rear end got shoved forward a good 4-6 inches. The crossmember and the fuel tank skid plate are both against the fuel tank. It's still drivable though, he claims it drives just the same. The air bags didn't go off and he tried to eat the steering wheel, it looks to me like a tooth went through his lip, but all in all he was ok. And he did get a ticket, which kinda cracks me up.

But anyways, off on a tangent... Could you get me a picture of how your C's are gusseted, please? I'm pretty sure my buddy has it all figured out in his head, but I would still like to see how yours is.

Oh and when the front axle breakage happened, do you remember what the u joints were? Stock dana/spicers? You say it took it out, but did it break like i showed the greasable ones breaking, around the grease zerk? I'm kinda surprised it didn't twist the ears off the shaft, since that's the smallest part on them. I like chromoly because it has torsional strength and should spring back into place after stressed without breaking.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:00 pm

_STUCKY wrote:..............But anyways, off on a tangent... Could you get me a picture of how your C's are gusseted, please? I'm pretty sure my buddy has it all figured out in his head, but I would still like to see how yours is.

Oh and when the front axle breakage happened, do you remember what the u joints were? Stock dana/spicers? You say it took it out, but did it break like i showed the greasable ones breaking, around the grease zerk? I'm kinda surprised it didn't twist the ears off the shaft, since that's the smallest part on them. I like chromoly because it has torsional strength and should spring back into place after stressed without breaking.
Right now, I only run Spicer ungreaseable ujoints. You have to remember that my axle took some extreme angles when the lower ball joint went AWOL. That put the ujoint into extreme stress. The gussets are only for the upper portion of the inner C. The shop was more oriented to building "buggies" and not working on mere stock Heeps. While the gussets have worked well, they interfere with the coils from seating properly. This hasn't proven to be an issue on my performance.

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby _STUCKY » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:07 am

Thanks for the picture. It doesn't look like that would be a problem at all. Maybe if the coil came out of the bucket under extreme flex and came back down, missing the bucket, but that's unlikely. Do you have limit straps? Or are the shocks the limiting factor?

One more question about the Dana 30 build... How important do you think it will be to order up a u bolt style 1310 yoke? I've got a strap style 1310 yoke stock. The beauty of the u bolt style is that should something break on the trail, it's a little easier to change. If a bolt breaks (strap style) it would need some attention to get the broken part of the bolt out of the threaded part of the yoke. Also on my k5, when I got it, the rear axle yoke had 3 original bolts in it, and 1 I assume was stripped out and someone drilled it out and stuck a bolt and a nut on it. I never liked that...

I'm looking at about another $70 if I decide I need a yoke also. I thought I had one around, but no dice. I did find my other spring plate though.

I'm also gonna be ordering a set of these and going back to the factory pitman arm. They put the steering on top of the knuckles, instead of under it:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/miscella ... stoms.html
Last edited by _STUCKY on Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:04 pm

_STUCKY wrote:Thanks for the picture. It doesn't look like that would not be a problem at all. Maybe if the coil came out of the bucket under extreme flex and came back down, missing the bucket, but that's unlikely. Do you have limit straps? Or are the shocks the limiting factor?............
No limit straps. I can unseat the coils on really radical obstacles but, not to the point that they can clear the bump stops. It usually scares the bejesus out of me with the racket. I usually stop and ask my spotter, "WTF was that?" :roflmao:


_STUCKY wrote:..............One more question about the Dana 30 build... How important do you think it will be to order up a u bolt style 1310 yoke? I've got a strap style 1310 yoke stock. The beauty of the u bolt style is that should something break on the trail, it's a little easier to change. If a bolt breaks (strap style) it would need some attention to get the broken part of the bolt out of the threaded part of the yoke. .........
I can't help you here. I'm still running OEM straps on the hybrid Rubi 44/30 axles. I know on the Rubi D44s, you can drill out the threaded holes and do a little grinding on the back side of the yoke to run u bolts. Never saw a problem on the trail with mine or other club members.


_STUCKY wrote:..............I'm also gonna be ordering a set of these and going back to the factory pitman arm. They put the steering on top of the knuckles, instead of under it:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/miscella ... stoms.html
Never an issue with me. I try not to dead center a boulder at any great speed. I try to finesse my junk away from those situations but, I have upgraded to Currie HD steering. The flip will require to much work for me and having it as a DD.
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby _STUCKY » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:07 pm

Scratch that on the yoke. We found a used one in my buddy's pile o' parts. He also went to his old place of work and whipped out the front u bolt eliminators. These are made specifically for those spring plates, which are stock off the rear of jeep wagoneers. I ended up finding that I have 6 of them. Odd, since I only have 2 wagoneers. The math doesn't add up there, but what ever :?:. The ball joints showed up today. Gears, lockers, carrier, and install kit did not get ordered yet, but will tomorrow. Was waiting to see about finding a used yoke. And no truss being built tonight, it will have to wait until his next day of.

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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby _STUCKY » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:56 pm

Ha! I missed your post because we posted at the same time :crazy:

I don't think those tie rod flip kit things would work on a tj, nor would the type of truss we are going to build. There are too many brackets in the way.

As far as the yoke, I don't think the stock one will be a problem, it hasn't been yet. The thing with the u bolt style is as long as I have an extra u bolt, I can find a rock and a stick to get the broken one out, if need be. I certainly hope I never have to test that logic. With the strap style, it would be fun time in chisel town getting the broken piece out. I don't carry to much in there, and I'm usually either by myself, or with my buddy and all the junk is in mine, since he has no storage at all besides the floor boards. That's not the best place to stash tools offroad and off camber.

As far as limit straps go, I found what was labeled as "axle straps" at the local Farm & Home Supply that I think would work great. They were about $7 a piece. I bought them to hang a hammock between the 2 jeeps :lol:

And by the way, sorry for hi jacking your thread. I really do wish I could be of more help with your jeep, but there are a lot more knowledgable people out there, and you know where to find them. :shrug: That reminds me, I need to research setting up a Dana 30 ring and pinion...
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby _STUCKY » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:25 pm

:wave: Anything new?
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Re: No Help from The Jeep Forums

Postby F9K9 » Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:27 am

_STUCKY wrote::wave: Anything new?
Not really. I forgot that I had put down some money, a couple of years ago, with Savvy for a tub mounted tire carrier. It never came to fruition so, I ordered one of their front bumpers to replace my beat up and butchered oem bumper.

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I couldn't make the Warn 8274's unique mounting plate work with the bumper so, I had to modify the plate for it work. I had to cut off a lip to make it work.

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As mentioned in another thread here, I put the bumper and winch combo through a very long work out during our club's annual hangover ride this past new years day. Everything worked great together and I even had to drag out, after dark, a fellow club member who had blown up his turdy five rear axle. Luckily for him his 8.8 is almost complete and will be ready to replace it.

My rock lights also were utilized for that recovery.

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